sit properly

Dave, I would be very surprised if there was a road east of Index in 1912. The towns that were there were railroad towns. Nippon, for example, had no road that went to it, just the railroad. It's all really fascinating. No worries on the maps, though I still would love to see them. The pass is interesting, but plotting the road changes from Everett to US 97 is what I'm doing. I will photograph the crap out of this. I checked on the 1912 map, really fun, thanks! But I'm not seeing a road along the route. Might what you saw be the Tye River? The 1910 Atlas of Snohomish County shows the road stopping just east of Gold Bar. The 1927 Snohomish County maps are amazing, though! By '27, Index was already bi-passed! This is great (unless you lived in Index). Great site! I've never seen it before. Thanks! (I assume you've seen the 1915 Spencer PO map, right?) So when did the National Parks Highway move on over to Stevens Pass? Tomorrow should be fun. Thanks! -Eric

Most old roads across America were originally Native American paths, early military roads or forged by pioneers heading west in the mid 1800s. This goes for mountain passes as well. However, the neat thing about Stevens Pass in Washington is that it wasn't even discovered until 1890. Less than three years later, the pass was conquered by the railroad. However, it wouldn't be until 1924 that the first car would make it over. The Stevens Pass Scenic Highway (as it was originally know) officially opened a year later. In 1931, the state took over, naming it the less-catchy Primary State Highway 15. It became part of a federal highway, US Route 2, in 1948. It still holds that name today. There's a lot to discover along the US 2 corridor. Today, it stretches from Everett to just west of Peshastin - a distance of just over 100 miles. Though the pass wasn't conquered until 1924, the roads leading up to the pass existed well before the crossing. Old alignments abound through Snohomish, King and Chelan counties. As far as I am aware, this road was never part of a named road like the Yellowstone Trail or the National Parks Highway (both of those used Snoqualmie Pass to the south). This has always been a hidden local treasure, even after being adopted into the US highway system. Thanks to Dave's advice, this site and GoogleEarth, I've discovered old logging trails, early alignments, abandoned towns, tons of answers and more than a few questions. Armed with several maps dating back to 1895, speculation and some mighty fine weather, I'll be touring the entire length of the Stevens Pass Scenic Highway on my red Vespa GTS250 (named "Ruby II" - the same scooter that carried me 14,000 miles, twice across the country in 2008) on Wednesday. I'll be hitting every old alignment that I am aware of as well as some sights along the way. It should be about a 350 mile round trip. Upon returning, I'll post pictures of the trek as well as maps and explanations of the different alignments. For anyone that likes sniffing out possible old alignments, this is for you. For those that just like to look at pictures taken along the road, well, I'm sure you won't be disappointed - it's rare for me to come back from a trip such as this with less than 150 pictures. I'm not really sure how much interest they'll be in this little road, but I hope that some folks enjoy it. More to come. -Eric (& Ruby)

Thank you, Denny. It's good to be back. I wish that I could add more. Dave, I want to explore this route and that it's so close to Seattle, it makes it quite easy. I'm going to try to trace the 1902 route as closely as possible and take it from there. I keep getting this route confused with YT, especially when it comes to dates completed over their respective passes. I actually thought the Stevens Pass Route was opened a bit later than that. I'm going to have to see how far east the 1902 route went. That wasn't an auto road. Then I'll check the 1915 and 1919 to see how it was doing then. It's a short route, so it should be pretty simple. As for starting a new thread, I think I'll do that, starting off with my latest trip pictures/map and maybe a few other odds and ends. Would be fun. It's late in the season, I don't have too much time before the piles of snow start falling up there.

Well fun! I just did that, and looked around the Skykomish area. There's no road or trail or anything on the norther side of the river (where US 2 is now). Very interesting. I'm going to take a look at the Index area map too. 1902 is really early though. This is prehistoric! The processor on my laptop is very slow, so I'll have to try this on my more powerful desktop. This is a really impressive tool. Thanks!

I've just downloaded googleearth, but I don't know about the overlays. Sounds fairly amazing and would like to be in the know. Hook me up, if you can. Thanks!

YES! It's true. It's all paved. Not even crappy gravel. It's paved. There are crews working on it, putting in new guard rails (so be careful for them, of course). Not only is this road still drivable, it's still be serviced. I would assume the biggest use of it is camping just north of Index. I have a theory that someone brought up before. At first I thought it was bunk, but then I wasn't sure. And just now I watched your video and I'm probably wrong, but it's still a nifty notion. Heading east out of Index, was Index Mountain Road used? Dave's map is from 1921, so any use is REALLY early, if at all. I made a map... We shall see. My next theory (about the alignment bi-passing Grotto) is here, on Googlemaps. The more southeasterly part, which connects to US 2 just east of Grotto, continuing down through and past Skykomish is definitely Old Cascade Highway. No doubt there. But heading west from Miller River on NDF 6031... Was this ever an old alignment? It follows the terrain, for sure. It does make a bit of sense. Though, how it reconnects to US 2 is a big mystery. Maybe there was an old bridge somewhere. Or maybe the road that became US 2 was there and continued to Grotto, but to go past Grotto, you'd have to use NDF 6031. An old map might shed some light on this since both the river and the railroad would help to solve the question. I was here all summer, but it wasn't a happy summer. Mostly just injured and unable to ride. I'm working five days a week now on light duty and it's driving me crazy. Next week or the next I'll try to get out on the road again. The Cascade Highway is really calling me now. I'm ready to roll!

I'm not really sure where to add this since it's not YT, but within this thread, we talked about Index, WA. I can't find the original thread where I stated my surprise that the Cascade Highway never ventured into Index. And it's true that from very early on, Index was bi-passed. Dave mentioned somewhere (possibly in an email to me) that he found a map that showed Index being a town along the Cascade Highway. According to googlemaps, Gold Bar - Index Road stops at the RR tracks (when leaving Index, heading east). There seems to be no mythical "northwest passage" that connects Index to Gold Bar. My theory was that either it was a long, long ago abandoned road, now destroyed by whatever destroys these roads or that it never existed. However, yesterday I was very happily proven wrong. We started in Gold Bar on US 2 heading east. About a mile from that little town, we take a left on Reiter RD. This, according to one theory, is the old alignment of the Cascade Highway. We followed this beautiful little road along a very high and scary "cliff" and around hair pin turns, through park land until we were right up against the BNSF rail lines. I was sort of surprised that it lasted this long. And then we crossed the tracks! I was way too excited about this. We then drove on the Gold Bar - Index RD (still called Reiter RD, I think) into the amazingly little town of Index! It may seem like a small thing or like nothing at all, but I was stoked. Big time. For one, I love proving Googlemaps wrong. Love it. And for another, I found an fairly well maintained (paved!) old alignment of the Cascade Highway! I'm clearly not the first person to drive on this, but I bet I was the most excited. You can see the pics of that and more of our day trip here. My next job is to find out if Mt. Index River Road was an old alignment. I believe it was. Also, NDF 6031, just east of Baring (which is east of Index) - also called Lowes Creek RD at some point - may have been a old, old alignment, bi-passing Grotto. It's marked as such and just might be. My job is to find out if it's passable. -eric ps - I'm back in the saddle after a nasty injury at work that nixed my entire summer.

Mostly we talk about roads that were built for cars, but the Park Service in Gettysburg is marking an old road that went through the battlefield (the northern part of the Picketts Charge field). The blog Gettysburg Daily covers a bunch of different subjects going on in the park and town. In a recent post, they documented not only the old trace of Long Lane, but also the efforts to mark it. It's not what we normally cover, but it's interesting nonetheless. You can check that out here: http://www.gettysburgdaily.com/?p=4254 There is also another, older road that goes through what was going to becoming Gettysburg. I think it was the Great Wagon Road, which was later used by Forbes Road. There are old traces of it east of town. So anyway, hopefully someone will appreciate this. -Eric

Why not just upload them to YouTube? It would be seen by more people and might even bring more folks to the forum (not that the present company is lacking, of course ).

Dave, I'm really sorry to hear about your daughter. Glad to hear she's doing well though. Oh believe me, if I can get away, I shall! Hopefully soon, but we shall see. So you're saying that the gate could be on H RD? Or do you mean that it blocks where 1 RD used to go? Hopefully access can be gained. But some scouting around on Sulphur Springs Road could help as well. The paved road very well could be the start of the older alignment. The weird thing about it was that the pavement looked to be of the same vintage of the "main" road. Also, I couldn't tell where it went. It seemed to disappear. I wasn't looking for an alternate alignment, so I assumed it was just a slight rerouting or possibly part of a four-lane (which now seems silly). Is the museum in Waterville only open by appointment? I did see the post in question. I went through Monument Valley for the first time last year, but know very little about it other than "ohhhh pretty!" It will really be exciting to see what he's got to say though. It's a bit too far away for a whole new obsession, but still well worth a bit of salivation. And as for Index... how? My speculation was that it did, but I had no idea how. I'm assuming it used the "Goldbar-Index" road, but that "ends" at the tracks. Did it cross and then continue on Reiter RD? Wow.. was Reiter Road the original road? That's exciting! How did it fully go from Index to Goldbar? That's pretty neat. And where did it go east after Index? Back down the river to modern US 2? It doesn't take much to make my day. -Eric

Barbed telephone wires *did* exist. If you're in doubt, give a call to the Devil's Rope Museum in Adrian, Texas. Or just go here: http://www.texasescapes.com/DelbertTrew/Ba...-Telephones.htm Same guy. Hard to say if this was one (couldn't it also be telegraph?), but would be fun to follow it. They definitely had telephones (or telegraphs) at the old Post Office, so the line very well could lead there. Dave, I think we both need to meet up out there somehow. I think we'd be able to figure it out. Did you see my speculations on the road going east out of Moses Coulee? I think I figured it out. -Eric

Also, here's something that I just thought a bit about. We've been trying to figure out how to go east from Sulphur Springs RD to 1 RD to the west. The closest "road" is to the north west and it marked on Google till it seems to dead end. From that dead end, there seems to be no possibility of a road. However, if you note where the gate is (which seems to be on 1 RD just east of H RD) and instead, head north from US 2 on H RD, you might be able to bypass it. Here, take a look: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source...mp;t=h&z=15 If you go north on H and turn left on 1 and, instead of curving right with the road, look to your left. There seems to be an old road there. Could just be a path or a farm road, but it could be something. It follows the little valley that seems to go right to Sulphur Springs RD. Might this be the old alignment into Moses Coulee from the east? -Eric *It looks like Roads H and 1 have been recently changed. The satellite view of GoogleMaps doesn't match the mapping. But you should be able to understand what I'm saying. The "A" is where you'd make the left that isn't marked on the map. **I looked at it again, I'm pretty convinced that this was an older alignment. I can't quite see where it connects to Sulphur Springs Road, but I see traces of it where it makes no real sense for a road to otherwise be. I marked my speculations in red. I believe it crossed the stream twice.

Dave, I'm really sorry to hear about your family emergency. Hopefully everything works out. When we first started talking about a possible first alignment, I thought you were talking about one farther to the north (by a few miles). I didn't think that was possible. But you were talking about an alignment much closer to the later road, which I didn't even consider. In cases like this, I guess I don't care much if I'm wrong, I just want to know. That's great about the road-making abilities. It makes sense, they were making huge cuts for railroads long before they were doing it for roads. The technology was there, but cars could take a crazy grade, where trains couldn't. Nope, I meant the *west* side. You can see it here: http://www.littleblackstar.com/albums/2009...s/P1040776.html and here: http://www.littleblackstar.com/albums/2009...s/P1040777.html It is *before* the grain hopper (or whatever it was). If Spencer was on the 1935 alignment (the post office was long gone by then), wouldn't it be mentioned in a later ABB? My guess is that the area was still named, but everything was gone. You'll still find Homer and Bagdad, California on maps, but there's nothing there anymore. I think we really need to (and can) figure this out.

Dave, I am very happily defeated here! I was imagining the older road being a mile or so north and that just didn't make sense. But where you placed it makes perfect sense. Now where is that hotel?! -Eric

Dave! Looks like some questions are answered and looks like I was wrong. That's great! I saw the little man-made patch (D) on Google Earth too, but didn't know what to make of it since it didn't match mileage for anything. Did you see the abandoned rode right next to the latest road on the west side of the coulee? I'm a bit confused as to why it's there. On your bottom map (for the eastern side of the coulee), could you see how the road connected to the roads in the bottom of the coulee? It doesn't seem like there's an easy way for it to do that. Such a shame about the gate. Looks like there are phone numbers on the sign? Might be worth it. The hotel/post office thing is completely confusing. There don't seem to be any turn anywhere. Would old county maps help, perhaps? Maybe the county's courthouse should be paid a visit. Could the machinery building (if that's what it was) be related to the railroad? Or perhaps to the road crews? I'm not sure where the railroad went through up there, but I seem to remember the post office mostly serving the railroad. http://sdp45.blogspot.com/2008/02/railroad...waterville.html http://sdp45.blogspot.com/2008/02/little-p...st-offices.html There's also a bit about irrigation here: http://www.archive.org/stream/irrigatedlan...tagoog_djvu.txt (search for "Moses coulee") It doesn't really say where in the coulee the irrigation was, but there may have been crops, etc. This could, of course, all be happening far north or far south of the road. Again, very jealous. -Eric

Thanks for posting this. You're making me a little (more) homesick. It's a good thing. -Eric

I'm really jealous. And curious about that other alignment. I'm thinking there isn't one and that you're looking for a mythical northwest passage. Also, I really, really hope I'm wrong. I think what he means by the center section is blocked by berms is that you can drive east on the western end of the road... and drive west on the eastern end of the road, but right in the middle, it is blocked. I hope you get some pictures of the blockage. I'd like to give it a try on the Vespa.

Dave, I enjoy you. I'm tempted to take to the road and go! But I don't think it'll happen. If I could make it to Moses Coulee and back in one quick day, I might. But it's cold over the passes this time of year and I think I'm pretty wimpy right now. I got the picture from the UW digital collection: http://www.lib.washington.edu/about/collections.html TONS of old stuff there. Good luck finding the old Hotel site. The desert wouldn't have completely reclaimed it. Oh, and while you're there, just as your going down the western slope of Moses Coulee, peek out over the edge. There is another road right there along side it. It looks like it was a 4 lane, but I'm doubting it was. I'm guess is that it was the original road and they put it there so they wouldn't have to make such a large cut. I'm envious. Really wish I could get out there. Looks like great weather for it. -Eric

Ah, I bet it is (I don't see ads), thanks. Seen it? Any good? -Eric

Speaking of the founding... I've heard (and should know) that PBS made a documentary about the National Parks Highway. I'd assume it's about the drive they did (sort of like the amazing documentary Horatio's Drive). I definitely suggested The Willows. After a long, long and horrible ride from Seattle to Wilbur with a maddening, splitting headache, The Willows was perfect. It was a miserable day (didn't want to go back to Pennsylvania and was the first day heading east). Thankfully, I had a nice motel.

I can't say for sure, but if the offices were located next to the Metropolitan Theatre in Seattle, then here's a pic of it: It would be the tiny storefront. The photo was taken in 1917. -Eric

HA! We came to the same conclusion, which is basically "can't be done without going there." I don't think I'll be heading out there this weekend, but if you do, I bet you'll figure it out. If there was a hotel there, there has to be photos somewhere. The Spencer Post Office was there from 1911 - 1918. It seems like it was related to the railroad.

And onto the next... "A" on my first map is at the corner of Baseline RD NE And A RD NE, on the bigger map, it's there too. All of the first map is including in the second map without a difference. But the 1923 map you posted gives us our answers! Check it out. See the road going east off the Sulpher Springs switchback? That attaches to what must be 1RD! So in 1923, that eastern (original 1915) road wasn't the main road, but it was still there. My "conclusion" based on the maps (not on mileage) is that in 1915, the old road connected to 1 RD NE. It then took a right on Woods RD NE and then a left on 12 RD NE, connecting back to US 2. Ok... 27.9 - Turn Right where Telephone Line turns left From there, according to ABB, it's 10.2 miles to... 38.1 - Right Fork, descending through gulch. Map - east of Moses Coulee To the end of the mapped road on GoogleMaps, it's 9.4 miles. Another .8 miles (roughly) and you're back on the Sulphur Spring loop. That explains how it went from US 2, west to the top of the eastern end of Moses Coulee. As for the Hotel and exactly how it went through the Coulee in 1915, we are dealing with roads that are no longer there. The Army Topo was confusing, but it's just showing what we already know. It's just a bit simplified. I don't think it's anything that isn't there anymore (with the exception of the road connecting 1 RD NE to Sulphur Springs RD). The ominous fork in the road where one branch goes northwest and the other goes southwest (which is missing from the 1923 map) is where the YT met with and old alignment of Moses Coulee RD. You can see that pretty easily on Google Earth. I'm speculating on the old Moses Coulee RD alignment, but it makes sense. Aside from where the hotel and the weird left/right turns were, we've got it! (haha) More than likely, the left/right turns have been cut and made into a curve or something. I see zero evidence of that, but with flooding and weather, etc, the old traces may be long gone. Here is what we know (from the ABB) Starting at the junction of Baseline and A RD NE (where we take a left onto Baseline) (18.2) - it's 7.3 miles to the eastern summit. it's .6 miles to the summit of the western side 2.7 more miles to the left at the foot of the grade .3 miles from that to the right turn .2 more miles to the hotel .4 miles to the foot of the grade coming down the eastern side 3.1 miles to the summit. Ok, 2.7 miles from the summit is where the road takes a very hard right. Is it possible that this used to be an intersection where you could also turn left? It's hard to tell, but maybe. And .3 miles after that, if it took a right, would you reach the foot of the eastern slope in .6 miles? Again, these roads are either no longer there or the ABB is completely insane. My vote is that you just can't see it or do it via maps anymore. -Eric

Ok, there's a lot here and I've got some "honey do's" of my own (but sadly, no honeydews). My mapping of Moses Coulee was based on two known points (A and C). A was the turn that we both agree on and C was the summit. I remember the summit very well because the old road came over my left shoulder right when we got to the top. I'm accurate within a tenth of a mile (you know, probably). That doesn't mean that this is the alignment, of course, but the numbers, including the summit, match up. As for the "turn left, turn right".. honestly, you got me there. Unless they mixed up right and left, it doesn't make sense. Everything matches but that (which means nothing matches, I guess). I was wondering about it going east from Sulpher Springs Rd to a "missing" road to 1 RD NE, as the Army Topo map suggests. This "confirms" that, but I'm not sure now. Also, the army topo places the route through the western slope of the coulee where we both have driven. If there was an earlier alignment, I don't think we've seen it mapped or described in the ABBs. If the route used the "missing" road > 1 RD NE, the summit would be about .1 miles after Googlemaps starts to recognize the road leading to 1 RD NE. This is all confusing and I think may only be solved with a visit to the land. It was all snapping into place and now I'm confused. I'm not convinced that there was another alignment going into the coulee from the west, but still... something ain't right. -Eric

Ok, here we go. From Waterville (Hotel) to Govan. From Govan to Reardon. Notes: The routing through Coulee City is confusing. I believe the Depot was on 8th and Main. I think the old road came into Coulee City (heading east) on 8th. You can't really see it now because of the dam. At the east end of Coulee City where you "swing right on county road" has me confused. There doesn't even look like there's a trace of old road there. This would all make sense if Locust Street used to be Main Street. Then it could swing right to get back on 36 RD NE, crossing the railroad where it's supposed to. This would also make sense if it would "Swing left" rather than "Swing right." Is that possible? Here is a picture of the Depot. Going east into Almira, where US 2 curves left, the old road went straight, ending at Childers RD. From there it turned left (as per ABB) In Davenport, according to the mileage, it would seem like the old road turned left on 12th Ave (Modern WA 28). I can't find where the old high school was, but I'm betting 12th and Maxwell. Somehow it got from Morgan ST to Sinclair ST via a "left fork" that is no longer there. I have it going up 8th, but that's not right. However, it was somewhere right before that, I think. I'm pretty sure about all of this, according to the ABB. Thoughts, please? -Eric