Guest Bob Reynolds Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 --- In AMERICAN_ROAD@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Burr" <hester_nec@y...> wrote: U S 63 ran to Vincent, AR, then south on current AR 147 to Lehi on U > S 70, just west of West Memphis. Then it ran east, joining 61/64 at > the junction of current N. Missouri and Broadway in West Memphis, and > on across the then Hernando Bridge into Memphis. > > Hudsonly, > Alex B Alex, I did a web search and couldn't find any reference to a Hernando Bridge in Memphis, except for the new Hernando DeSoto Bridge that carries I-40 across. I *did* find a most interesting wab page on the Harahan Bridge. I didn't know the roadbeds were wooden and had at one time burned down. I'm not sure I believe some of the paranormal claimes made, but nevertheless, it's a most enlightening site. Check it out! http://www.stevecox.com/harahan/index.html Happy Trails, BabyBoomerBob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jim Ross Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Greetings All, Bonnie & Clyde's death car is, indeed, at the Primm Valley Resort. Please see my sidebar about it on page 18 of American Road, Vol. 1, No. 2. Driving on 1927 pavement: I have the privilege driving first generation Route 66 paving (1928) every time I leave my driveway. Jim R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jenniferrt66 Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Driving on Route 66 provides many wonderful opportunities to drive on old concrete. We just had the pleasure of driving many old concrete sections in Oklahoma over New Year's weekend. Of course, the radio goes off so we can listen to the thump thump of the concrete seams! Illinois 66 has a very nice section (among many) of original concrete, and there's a spot near Nilwood where back when the concrete was poured, that a farmer's turkeys got loose and there's turkey tracks in the pavement! Also in Auburn, Illinois is a short stretch of original brick. http://tinyurl.com/ytor Jennifer P.S. And if anyone has any good stories of "anything" road-related (yes, even on the roadside, like diners and attractions) I encourage you to post about it! As always, we like to have a wide variety of discussion here and don't discourage anyone from posting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest William Cashman Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 ----- Original Message ----- From: drivewdave@aol.com When was the last time you as in any of you drove on some actual pavement from the 1920s, I would like to hear the particulars. We were on one of these roads in Oklahoma while on a cross state bicycle tour a few years ago. Don't remember where it was, but I'll ask some friends that live in OK if they remember the road. I remember that the seams between the slabs didn't have much filler in them any longer and that made for a VERY rough ride on a bicycle! Cya l8r, Bill There are two theories to arguing with women. Neither one works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Ward Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 This was sent to me from Delorme to promote Street Atlas: You're probably thinking that Valentine's Day (FL) has nothing to do with maps, and you are Likely (CA) Correct (IN), but we would still like to Tell (GA) you the Little (KY) known Story (WY) about the Bachelor (CO) who gave up his Freedom (NH) in search of his one true Love (AZ). It is a Delight (MD) to hear and will take very Little (OK) Time (PA) to Tell (WI). Our story begins in elementary school with a shy Kid (AL) named Eugene (OR), asking Helena (MT) to be his Valentine (NJ) with a Hand (SC) crafted cardboard Heart (MO). Unfortunately, Helena (AR) had already said "yes" to Monroe (LA) and the Disappointment (WA) that Eugene (CA) felt was fitting for a child from Lonelyville (NY). The two developed a Friendship (ME), over the Next (WV) few years, but it wasn't Strong (UT) Enough (MO) to keep Eugene (FL) from seeking Fame (OK) and Fortune (NF) in Far (WV) away places. Eugene (IN) continued to Date (SD) and spent much of his Time (IL) at the Disco (TN), but he never Felt (ID) Content (TX). Finally, he thought about the moments when he Felt (OK) True (TX) Joy (IL) and realized they were always with Helena (MI). So upon his Return (VA) Home (CO), he used his Street (MS) Atlas (CA) USA 2005 software to look up the location of the local Flower (WV) shop to Purchase (NY) a Rose (IA), or perhaps a Bouquet (NY). He then looked up a jeweler and bought a Diamond (AK) Ring (WI) that had a beautiful Sparkle (CA). Seeing Eugene (MI) was quite a Surprise (NE) for Helena (OH) so she didn't Ponder (MO) the Fact (KS) that they were walking toward Engagement Hill (NC), but her response was never in doubt. Fate (TX) brought them together and now the Happy (AK) Bride (TN) and Groom (TX) live in wedded Bliss (NV) while sharing complete Faith (MN) and Devotion (NC). They no longer live in Lonelyville, they've since moved to Harmony (DE). Mike Ward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest laurelrk66@aol.com Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 > http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1735094 Ken, for some reason that news report about the Mickey Mantle Museum, although bearing today's date, seems to be kind of old. That piece of land in Commerce has been cleared (with a sign indicating that the Mickey Mantle Museum was to be built there) for at least the last two or three years. I spoke to the person in charge of the project about a year ago, when I made my contribution to the cause, and he said at that time that construction was being held up due to difficulty raising money. I see that the website for the museum has been slightly updated recently, however, ( Click: http://www.theswearingens.com/museum/ ) so maybe they're feeling more optimistic about a groundbreaking date now. Being a lifelong Mickey Mantle fan, I've been excited about this proposed museum for a long time, and I also visit Mickey's boyhood home in Commerce about once a month on my way through town, just to see if any changes have been made to it. Laurel Afton, OK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ken Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Thanks John, The Two Lane Highway "Circle of Support" is what I say! Please send me a private email with the following info and format and I will be happy to link your website: Title: a site title in ALL CAPS LETTERING Description: a nice 2-3 sentence site descripyion URL: God Bless. Ken --- In AMERICAN_ROAD@yahoogroups.com, "JWM" <drivetheost@y...> wrote: > > Hi Ken, > > Comprehensive site! I wonder if I could be so presumptuous to ask you > to consider creating an ?Old Spanish Trails Friends? subheading and > add these links: > > http://www.drivetheost.com/ > > http://www.oldspanishtrailcentennial.com/ > > Thanks, and Happy Roading! > > John W. Murphey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest drivewdave@aol.com Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 In a message dated 2/14/04 8:17:35 PM, abphoto7@comcast.net writes: << Lets not forget some of the brick paver sections of old 66's early western leg south of Springfield here in Illinois. >> that's right, let's not forget, that's the whole point of all this american road activity. it is great to see the road reports coming in, nice job folks. seems like many or most roadies are also foodies, there was a great show on PBS last monday about sandwiches, they visited about twenty restaurants and each one had the best sandwich ever, mostly in the east and midwest. watch for it on repeats, Sandwiches That You Will Like. the 'sidewalk' nine foot wide segment of early US 66 has alway intrigued me, glad to know it is still extant. there is little need for one lane roads in the midwest where there is plenty of room to spread out, but I assume there are plenty of one lane driveways and farm roads. here in Washington there are one lane roads in the mountains, mainly on national forest land, the cost of building them is the limiting factor, there are turnouts every few hundred yards usually. these narrow ledges are not for the squeamish, when I was very young I would easily get scared on them but nowdays it's the other way around, my mom gets nervous and does not want to go on them. the time I was in Billings Montana one of the locals told me that the laundromats do a lot of business cleaning the pants of the flatlanders who had the **** scared out of them, literally, from the drive down the switchbacks on the Beartooth Highway aka the Red Lodge-Cooke City road. hey if you wanted to have an extreme early road experience maybe you could locate an original segment of the National Road and herd some livestock to market like they did long ago. keep the road reports coming, thanks, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest drivewdave@aol.com Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 forgot to mention a magazine article that may interest some it's in the new The New Yorker of Feb 16 & 23 Our Local Correspondents Route 3 What I saw on the road through New Jersey by Ian Frazier some of you may have read Frazier's book Great Plains which is about what he saw on road trips between Texas and Montana where he lived for several years. He has a great eye for the telling detail and is one of my favorite writers. another The New Yorker writer who has a gift for describing the landscape is John McPhee and while we are at it let's put in the good word for good old George R. Stewart of US 40 fame. you can read Route 3 online at newyorker.com it's right on the home page. happy motoring (and reading) Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Glenn Adams Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 I have driven on cobblestone streets in Baltimore that may predate automobiles. It's considered fashionable in these old maritime areas to display your roots. Old unused railroad (or streetcar) tracks between the stones lend credibility to their origin. Many brick streets are not original. "Real" bricks will have broken edges and not glossy colors. -----Original Message----- From: William Cashman <theoakman@theriver.com> Sent: Feb 14, 2004 8:09 AM To: AMERICAN_ROAD@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AMERICAN_ROAD] road report ----- Original Message ----- From: drivewdave@aol.com When was the last time you as in any of you drove on some actual pavement from the 1920s, I would like to hear the particulars. We were on one of these roads in Oklahoma while on a cross state bicycle tour a few years ago. Don't remember where it was, but I'll ask some friends that live in OK if they remember the road. I remember that the seams between the slabs didn't have much filler in them any longer and that made for a VERY rough ride on a bicycle! Cya l8r, Bill Glenn Adams gfa77@earthlink.net www.lasvegasregion.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Allen Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Lets not forget some of the brick paver sections of old 66's early western leg south of Springfield here in Illinois. Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ken Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Greetings All! This is great news indeed! We'll soon have another great stopping place along the Mother Road: <http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1735094> God Bless and Happy Trails. the landrunner <http://www.route66postmarkart.com> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest towelie Posted February 3, 2005 Report Share Posted February 3, 2005 --- In AMERICAN_ROAD@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ross" <pathfinder66@e...> wrote: > Greetings All, > > As Shellee mentioned in her post, old US 71 in northwest Arkansas is a fun drive, and Mr. McClanahan gets credit for inspiring the trip with his excellent article. We met some interesting people, and their pets (including the owner of the round barn pictured in the article). If you like antique shopping, however, I don't recommend this drive in the winter, as most everything was closed. From Arkansas, we meandered into southeastern Oklahoma for a visit to Robber's Cave State Park, and later drove the Talimena Scenic Byway along Winding Stair Mountain, in spite of the dense fog. Of course, Miss Graham had me constantly pulling off onto the overlooks for photos, even though visibility was about 30 feet. I can't wait to see those images! The overlooks did have cool names, like Sugarloaf Vista. We drove over 20 miles without encountering one other vehicle. Did you drive any of old 71 in Polk County? Much of it is still gravel, and some of it is not obviously part of the old highway, so it's easy to miss. If anybody needs directions to these old sections, I'd be glad to post where the sections run. I live maybe a mile from the eastern end of the Talimena Drive, so I am very familiar with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Russell S. Rein Posted February 3, 2005 Report Share Posted February 3, 2005 Don't forget that Michigan is the only place where you will find Paradise, Nirvana.............and Hell! ypsi-slim from Ypsilanti, MI.............not Ypsilanti, GA or Ypsilanti, ND On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:53:20 -0800 (PST) Anna Vandenhazel <annavandenhazel@yahoo.com> writes: Excellent! And all this time I thought Eugene, OR was the only city/town by that name. mapsandatlases@yahoogroups.com wrote: Message: 1 Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:26:16 -0700 From: "Mike Ward" Subject: Interesting map-related story This was sent to me from Delorme to promote Street Atlas: You're probably thinking that Valentine's Day (FL) has nothing to do with maps, and you are Likely (CA) Correct (IN), but we would still like to Tell (GA) you the Little (KY) known Story (WY) about the Bachelor (CO) who gave up his Freedom (NH) in search of his one true Love (AZ). It is a Delight (MD) to hear and will take very Little (OK) Time (PA) to Tell (WI). Our story begins in elementary school with a shy Kid (AL) named Eugene (OR), asking Helena (MT) to be his Valentine (NJ) with a Hand (SC) crafted cardboard Heart (MO). Unfortunately, Helena (AR) had already said "yes" to Monroe (LA) and the Disappointment (WA) that Eugene (CA) felt was fitting for a child from Lonelyville (NY). The two developed a Friendship (ME), over the Next (WV) few years, but it wasn't Strong (UT) Enough (MO) to keep Eugene (FL) from seeking Fame (OK) and Fortune (NF) in Far (WV) away places. Eugene (IN) continued to Date (SD) and spent much of his Time (IL) at the Disco (TN), but he never Felt (ID) Content (TX). Finally, he thought about the moments when he Felt (OK) True (TX) Joy (IL) and realized they were always with Helena (MI). So upon his Return (VA) Home (CO), he used his Street (MS) Atlas (CA) USA 2005 software to look up the location of the local Flower (WV) shop to Purchase (NY) a Rose (IA), or perhaps a Bouquet (NY). He then looked up a jeweler and bought a Diamond (AK) Ring (WI) that had a beautiful Sparkle (CA). Seeing Eugene (MI) was quite a Surprise (NE) for Helena (OH) so she didn't Ponder (MO) the Fact (KS) that they were walking toward Engagement Hill (NC), but her response was never in doubt. Fate (TX) brought them together and now the Happy (AK) Bride (TN) and Groom (TX) live in wedded Bliss (NV) while sharing complete Faith (MN) and Devotion (NC). They no longer live in Lonelyville, they've since moved to Harmony (DE). Mike Ward [This message contained attachments] ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Supporter of Heavenly Angels In Need: http://HeavenlyAngelsinNeed.com Check out these Yahoo Groups! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/heartsunitedvt/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/knitwithcats/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/positive_knitwits/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CHARITYCRAFTINGCHATTERS/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KnittingMadeEasy4U/ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mapsandatlases/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: mapsandatlases-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Russell S. Rein Posted February 3, 2005 Report Share Posted February 3, 2005 Hello - I thought it was almost spring but Punxsutawney Phil says six more weeks of winter........aaarrrgghh!! http://www.groundhog.org/prediction/ Welcome to your Lincoln Highway E-Newletter Vol. 3, 2005. For our Ely bound readers here's some more Nevada and US 50 links for your consideration - * Check out the PonyExpress.com site for more lodging, dining, attractions opportunities: http://www.ponyexpressnevada.com/ely.html * Wulf Bergs coast to coast on US 50 site: http://www.route50.com/ * US 50 from the Historic California US Highways website: http://www.gbcnet.com/ushighways/US50.html * Lycos Travel - US 50 page: http://xrl.us/eynk * US 50 page from John Crossley's American Southwest website: http://xrl.us/eyno * Route 50 from the Utah Highways website: http://members.aol.com/utahhwys/041-060.htm#rte050 * Doug Pappas' on-line journal of his 1992 US 50 trip from Sacrament to Ocean City, MD http://roadsidephotos.com/old/main-7.htm * US 50 from the Travels in the American Southwest website: http://www.cmdrmark.com/20004.html * Open Roads 2002 Route 50 Tour by the Austin Healey Owners Group: http://members.aol.com/Route501/home.html * The Loneliest Highway in America from Cactus Jim's Desert USA website: http://www.desertusa.com/mag98/july/stories/hwy50.html LHA member Sandor Gulyas has updated his roadfan.com Lincoln Highway pages with some black and white snapshots of the LH from the '60s: www.roadfan.com/tittle2.html - Nebraska, Wyoming, Utah, Nevada Photos www.roadfan.com/tittle3.html - Donner Lake & Donner Peak Photos The Indiana LHA Chapter website has been updated with Donn Werling's Presentation on the Ideal Section that he gave at the LHA National Conference at Fort Wayne, June 2003: http://www.indianalincolnhighway.com/page9.html Be sure to check out the links page - all the links to Lincolnway: http://www.indianalincolnhighway.com/page3.html Highways West Reno/Sparks article with some great roadside photos: http://xrl.us/eynd State Center, IA is chosen for Iowa's Living Roadways Community Visioning Program: http://xrl.us/eyng Another article about the late Doug Pappas' collection of books, postcards and photos donated to the U of M, from the student newspaper the Michigan Daily: http://xrl.us/eymx More about Craig Harmon's Lincoln Highway Memorial Presidential Inaugural Parade event: http://xrl.us/eymn http://xrl.us/eymo http://xrl.us/eymq http://xrl.us/eymr http://xrl.us/eyms http://xrl.us/eym5 LHA member Dan Gilman reports that all the Hotel Nevada's mini-suites have been booked for the LHA Conference but regular rooms are still available. Wonder who go the Kennicott Suite? or the Wayne Newton one? Some ebay auctions: An old Ship Hotel Grand View Point license plate topper, different design than the reproduction one that is currently available, went for $157: http://xrl.us/eyok Check out this Old Trails license plate topper: http://xrl.us/eyom ....nice....I need one! A really beat-up embossed Oklahoma US 66 shield shaped sign went for $1,231! http://xrl.us/eyop A tiny US 30 cast iron arcade sign went for $71: http://xrl.us/eyoq A Delphos, OH Lincoln Highway Dairy cream top milk bottle went for $79: http://xrl.us/eyot Some Lake Tahoe real photo postcards brought a high price - Winter scene of the US 40 control gate at Baxter's went for $37: http://xrl.us/eyov Young's Bijou Beach scenic view went for $43: http://xrl.us/eyow A Ship Hotel Grand View Point souvenir color Staffordshire plate went for $202 - wow: http://xrl.us/eyoz I've seen the same design in all blue and all red. A printed postcard of the Ely, NV Northern Hotel and drug store went for $34: http://xrl.us/eyo3 An old wooden gas stick from the Lincoln Highway Garage in Maxwell, NE went for $36 - " "If you wreck 'em, let Hap get 'em With His Reo "Go-Devil": http://xrl.us/eyo4 A menu holder w/out the menu from the SS Grand View Ship Hotel went for $66: http://xrl.us/eyo5 A printed postcard of the Hotel Klein, (LH Control Station) in New Brunswick, NJ went for $48: http://xrl.us/eyo8 That's all for now..........stay warm...........it's almost March. ypsi-slim from Ypsilanti, MI (not Ypsilanti GA or ND) home of the Apex, Tucker, Kaiser-Frazier, and the Corvair! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chris Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 TV Alert - Sorry this is on now, repeats 1:00am. Check listings! Drive-In Movie Memories EE ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Drive-In Movie Memories PBS Mar 02 08:00pm (EST) Special/Other, 60 Mins. Original Airdate: July 7, 2003. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Denny Gibson Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Jim Ross's excellent article on the birth of nationwide highway numbering provided both information and a chance to ask about an atlas in my possession. This certainly qualifies as a Mike Ward question but maybe some others have comments, too. There are no dates on the atlas and only a couple of names. The front and back covers indicate that it was given away by the Kansas City Journal-Post. I believe that I've seen photos of similar looking atlases from Rand McNally. Undated copyright notices refer to the George F Cram Company of Indianapolis. Now the good part. Maps are "With New Federal Numbering System" plus the "Pole Markers" for 32 "Named Highways" are shown. The route from Chicago to L.A. carries the "Federal Road Number" 60 and "Federal Road Number" 62 goes through Kentucky. Clearly, the atlas comes from around 1925-26 and shows that the switch from names to numbers did not occur instantly. Can it be dated even more precisely? Were these "mixed-mode" maps common? The atlas is a great "time capsule" with a glimpse of the name to number transition and the general state of roads (paved roads are marked and there aren't many between Kansas City & California) and laws (Mississippi required 1 red tail light, over the line you needed both red & white in Louisiana, but either red or yellow was alright in Texas). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest R.V. Droz Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 The Atlas in question dated from between October 30, 1925 and November 11, 1926, when this preliminary list http://www.us-highways.com/1925bpr.htm was still under discussion. It was not required that states drop all the names to use the numbers, but the numbering system was selected to kill off the Named routes. -- ___________________________________________________________ Happy Motoring! _._._._.____~__ Robert V. Droz ( us98@earthlink.net ) [____________][___ U.S. Highways : From US 1 to (US 830) [________/____[_|__ http://www.us-highways.com/ ()() ()() () Route Logs - Standard Oil - Highway Makeover - Pics - Maps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Denny Gibson Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 The Cram atlas is very similar to the Rand McNally version. Not surprisingly, there are some differences in detail that I can see in the Albuquerque section reproduced on the us-highways site. Since I sent the message, I've discovered that Cram is still in business and has a web site (http://www.georgefcram.com) so I may send an inquiry there way. BTW, I'm somewhat familiar with your site and link to it from dennygibson.com. It's been quite useful & entertaining in the past and I know it will be again. An incredible job and much appreciated. Pleased to make your e-quaintance, Denny Gibson -----Original Message----- From: R.V. Droz [mailto:us98@earthlink.net] Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 9:36 PM To: AMERICAN_ROAD@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AMERICAN_ROAD] Numbers Game - atlas question. The Atlas in question dated from between October 30, 1925 and November 11, 1926, when this preliminary list http://www.us-highways.com/1925bpr.htm was still under discussion. It was not required that states drop all the names to use the numbers, but the numbering system was selected to kill off the Named routes. -- ___________________________________________________________ Happy Motoring! _._._._.____~__ Robert V. Droz ( us98@earthlink.net ) [____________][___ U.S. Highways : From US 1 to (US 830) [________/____[_|__ http://www.us-highways.com/ ()() ()() () Route Logs - Standard Oil - Highway Makeover - Pics - Maps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David G. Clark Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 --- In AMERICAN_ROAD@yahoogroups.com, drivewdave@a... wrote: > Years later when my fascination with roads reached new > levels I came to further realize the limitations of standard > issue commercial maps. Mostly it is a limitation of scale. > If we had cheap microprocessors back in the old days it > might have been different. Nowdays it is possible to > carry complete editions of USGS maps on a laptop or > you can just got to sites like topozone.com. > Gas station maps also are hard put to tell you when, > for starters, most of them have no copyright date. > I suspect this was to forestall their obsolescence. > The motoring public might well be skeptical of last > years map, even enough to change brands perhaps. I have written an article that will hopefully be for publication, in which I say, "I have learned that maps can be good sources, but they also can be purveyors of yesterday's news, tomorrow's dreams, or blatant lies." In this thread about route beginnings and endings, maps are good enough for the fun of the conversation. But you are completely right--when I want something I can depend on, I have to look further than maps. In Illinois, the state publishes "official" maps, which can be just as suspect as the old gas station maps-- however the official maps are at least dated. As to dating gas station maps, most had a code along the edge which gave a clue to the if you know what the codes mean. Most of these were made by Gousha or Rand McNally or some other map maker for the gas companies, and each map maker had their own unique coding. List member Mike Ward knows a lot more about this than I do, so hopefully he will chime in here. For publication, I rely on verification of map data via another source, such as aerial photos, newspaper accounts, "street scene" photos with verifiable dates, or some official publication besides maps. One godsend I have found here in Illinois is that the Division of Highways published "Route Bulletins" in the 1920s and 1930s that kept up-to-date on route changes, detours, and road conditions. In years with a lot of activity, they came out 5 or 6 times during the year. Most of us know that all the original U.S. highways were "born" on November 11, 1926, when the scheme of numbering was adopted by AASHTO. Rand McNally had jumped the gun and published their 1926 Road Atlas, but they based it on earlier versions of the scheme which showed the road we know as US 66, marked as US 60. As late as February of 1927, the Chicago Tribune was publishing articles talking about the "coming numbered Federal highway" markings, talking about US 60 running from Chicago to L.A. So it is clear to me that there were no signs out there in Feb '27, no matter what any maps might say. Dave Clark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest drivewdave@aol.com Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 In a message dated 4/26/03 1:36:09 AM, olympia66@netzero.net writes: << As late as February of 1927, the Chicago Tribune was publishing articles talking about the "coming numbered Federal highway" markings, talking about US 60 running from Chicago to L.A. So it is clear to me that there were no signs out there in Feb '27, no matter what any maps might say. >> Dave, thanks for the info, I did not know that about map codes. I am not so sure you can draw a firm conclusion from the Tribune, maybe the writer just consulted the Rand MacNally. But you are most likely right considering that the construction season probably had not yet started by Feb '27. Here is the first paragraph of what the OR 1919-1920 Report of the State Highway Commission has on signage: Signing of State Highways In response to a growing demand for a uniform and adequate system of road signs, the Highway Commission undertook, early in 1920, the signing of the more important of the State highways. This work had not been taken up earlier due to the fact that none of our State highways prior to 1920, had been definitely located over their entire lengths, making it impossible to determine the mileages between many important points with sufficient accuracy to warrant the showing of these mileages on permanent signs. Further on it mentions that "During the 1920 season, the Pacific Highway, 345 miles in length, was completely signed" and then mentions about some other state highways that "The signing of all of these highways will be completed before the summer of 1921" The problem of routes that had not been permanently located was met with wooden signs, "The erection of these temporary signs will be commenced within the next few weeks." The report is dated Dec 1, 1920. So there you go, even the state report only narrows it down to a year. They do have a photo of the standard type of sign, "in general, enamel metal signs on hollow steel posts embedded in concrete pedstals." I liked the reference to 'Route Bulletins' and recall the monthly Highway Dept. publications here in WA have similar info. If someone wanted to be truly exhaustive of ALL the alignments of a given highway it seems to me they would want to include all of the construction detours, any road that carried the traffic load at any time. I remember reading an account by an older woman who lived in the countryside south of Portland as a young girl. It told of the one summer when a detour took all the highway traffic right past their farm, it made quite an impression of her. Also this could be fun for those who have been over all the alignments of their favorite road, learn the detours too. Another source for this kind of info is auto-club route updates. Thanks for writing, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest drivewdave@aol.com Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 This is the rest of what was inadvertently sent too soon, sorry folks, lets take it from the top. this turned rather lengthy so here's the bottom line if you don't feel like reading through the rest. The most accurate highway info that I know of is available from the government reports that may be found in the engineering sections of larger libraries. For some of you this may be old news but for me it was something I had to find out for myself so it may help others. Also before we get started, kudos and much appreciation to Hudsonly Alex B. for his entertaining story of the roots of his passion for highways and auto travel. I suspect that many of us also have our own versions of early influences that eventually led us to this AMERICAN ROAD yahoogroup and I would encourage anyone who is even mildly interesting in sharing their personal story to please, please do so. Anyways, the topic is which routes overlapped US66 in Chicago so here goes... In a message dated 4/25/03 1:41:17 PM, olympia66@netzero.net writes: << Does anyone want to chime in with an answer as to the other ending points? Dave Clark Windy City Road Warrior >> Hi Dave and everybody else from another Dave (in Seattle, the Rainy City) No information about Chicago routes from me, it's not my neck of the woods. For the record I have been through your WIndy City twice, eastbound on the JFK during Friday late afternoon/early evening and westbound from Detroit on Amtrak with a spectacular view of the Merchandise Mart from along the river on the way out. Also, I do not get overly hung up on highway numerology, the visual aspects of the roads are what really get me going. But I can see how people could get into that and so do I to a certain extent, for example I like to tell people that the Pacific Highway was billed as "the world's longest paved strip" for a time, and I used to remember how many miles that was. My good friend the late Jack Carpentier could quote you chapter and verse when it came to numbers and dates, like the exact date of the adoption of the numbered US highways system. I am pretty sure I recall it was in the spring of 1926, I bet some of you could rattle it off too. Anyways a few general observations about highway data. At an early age I appointed myself navigator on family excursions and I soon came to realize that what was on the gas station map did not accurately show what was on the ground and was only approximate. This offended my sensibilities even as a child. Years later when my fascination with roads reached new levels I came to further realize the limitations of standard issue commercial maps. Mostly it is a limitation of scale. If we had cheap microprocessors back in the old days it might have been different. Nowdays it is possible to carry complete editions of USGS maps on a laptop or you can just go to sites like topozone.com. The 15 minute series which is derived from aerial photos is usually about as accurate as you would want but of course it still does not answer the question of when, it only tells you where. Gas station maps also are hard put to tell you when, for starters, most of them have no copyright date. I suspect this was to forestall their obsolescence. The motoring public might well be skeptical of last years map, even enough to change brands perhaps. Don't get me wrong, I love my old gas station maps and find them extremely evocative. But when I want to get the straight skinny, the real deal, the last word, this is where I go. Here in WA and in OR and CA to the south the state highway commisions published official reports. In WA and OR they were coincident with the biannual legislative sessions. It is reasonable to expect that all of the states did this. They are hardbound volumes packed with data, charts, graphs, maps, photos and descriptions of activities. I am not saying that they are 100% accurate but it seems to me if anybody was going to get it right it would be these people. After all even though they work for the government the Are engineers. The example to hand, obtained for $30 ten years ago from a Portland bookdealer. STATE OF OREGON Fourth Biennial Report of the State Highway Commission to the Governor (OR state seal) 1919-1920 the above is an approximation of the cover layout (this is where the original post was sent by mistake) Okay where were we, about to expound on the OR state highway commission report. The first two pages are blank and tipped into the binding is a small sheet of erratum, five in all. And those are just the ones they caught, this show that even the official reports are fallible. Here's an example, Page 134--Table S--Coast Highway. Skipson-Seaside section given as Concrete Pavement should read Bituminous Pavement. Obviously this is a major difference, the other errors are a bit more inoccuous unless you are an accountant, for example Page 7--Financial Statement--Receipts. Sale of bonds, 1919, given as $6,737,509.16 should read $6,373,509.16 Next comes the title page facing a full page photo of a new bridge. Then a two page table of contents, too much to repeat in full but here are the main headings. Letter of Transmittal to the Governor (sort of a formal protocol) Report of the State Highway Commission (A 25 page condensation of the entire book) State Highway Engineers Report to State Highway Commission (38 pages, more detail than the above) Financial Report (15 pages) General Tabulated Information and Highway Maps (25 pages) And finally, the largest and most interesting part of the book Descriptions of Individual Jobs.........................................137 to 425 (almost 300 pages) (Arranged by County in Alpahbetical Order) These give information about construction activity, and in combination with the old topo maps a fairly accurate picture can be obtained as to where and when. City jurisdictions like Chicago may be another matter entirely, I don't know. I am not saying these reports will answer all your questions but I do know you will get access to way more info than you probably ever wanted to know and most of it is not found on the gas station map or in the Road Atlas. Speaking of which, at least most Road Atlases are dated, but still there is a lag time between data collection and publication, they are probably already out of date when new. Anyways, go to a large library, a University might have a separate Engineering Library like the U of W has, or had, I have not been there since the late 70s, at that time the stacks were open and complete editions of state reports were waiting there for anyone to look at. There were plenty of other good things to look at too like Highway Dept. house organs, monthlies with lots of pictures and updates on the latest projects and proposed projects. I could spend days and days in those stacks. The reports are the best sources I have found so far for info on highway evolution. So my opinion is enjoy your gas station maps for what they are with all their limitations and when you want to get more specific go to the library and start digging. I assume you can locate equivalent sources for Illinois and Chicago. The State Reports are just plain fun to read, and offer occasional glimpses of the human side of the engineering field, here are examples: In architectural treatment the bridge is very simple and at the same time has a very dignified appearance. Much thought was put on the lines of the piers and trusses and the final plans give a pleasing suggestion of strength and beauty. Especial care was given to the handrail of the approaches and it is felt that the finished bridge will present a har- monius combination of wood approach, concrete piers, and steel center section. The improvement of this road as contemplated will be highly appreciated by farmers along the route and afford tourist traffic a road free from all railroad crossings at grade and passable at all times of the year. and this about another bridge In view of the prominence of the structure on the State Highway system it was thought appropriate that some effort be made toward pleasing appearance. Accordingly the design was made rather pretentious and a striking contrast was obtained by use of two brands of cement of widely differing color. The result is a vey pleasing effect which has already been the subject of much favorable comment. The reports are far too numerous to have been written by one person, I assume they were compiled by the resident engineers, They share a uniformity of writing style, formal bureaucratic, but one takes on a scolding tone in a rare show of emotion. Grand Ronde-Butler's Store Macadam After awarding contract for the Grand Ronde section of the McMinnville-Tillamook Highway as a post road project in March, 1919, there remained a stretch of 1.85 miles, in Yamhill County, extending east from Grand Ronde to the Polk County line near Butler's Store. Contract No. 156 for macadamizing this section was awarded June 10, 1919, to W. N. Trent of McMinnville Ore. Although the contract time for completion was set at August 31, 1919, the contractor accomplished practically nothing during that season and the road was impassable for automobiles during the winter. This con- dition necessitated the temporary, or emergency, work done on the Bentley-Grand Ronde road to provide a passable detour in order that traffic between Willamina and Tillamook might be maintained Starting work again May 25, 1920, the contractor has frittered away the seaon until the job was caught unfinished by the early rains of Sep- tember, and is still uncompleted. The work will thus run over into the third season, thought the section will be in good passable condition during this winter. The expenditure to date on this section is $8,864.00 and the estimated total cost completed is $16,000.00, to be paid by the State. Resident Engineer W. E. Anderson is in charge. here is an excerpt from another report involving the same contractor Work was begun on the contract April 10, 1919, but, due in part to a considerable increase in the amount of rock found necessary to make a satisfactory surface, and partly due to the contractor's dilatory tactics, lack of energy and organization, the bulk of the work was not finished until September, 1920, and final acceptance of the job has not yet been made. This year and a half project was for a mere 6.8 miles of road. The primitive conditions of the early days continue to fascinate me. If I had to actually drive under such conditions it might get old quick. Maybe not, if I had one of those newfangled SUVs, I had to laugh when I saw they were bringing back running boards. As I have written before, here in WA the Wenas road between Naches and Ellensburg is in essentially the same unimproved graded condition as it was in the 1920s when it was the main route. When I first wrote of this road last winter Pat of Lynnwood WA, our moderator, asked if perhaps this was the route of the Yellowstone Trail. Pat your hunch is correct, at least by my 1923 National Geographic Society United States map which shows 31 named highways and trails. The Yellowstone Trail is shown as being west of the Yakima River so it has to be that Wenas road which was a big fat line on an auto-club strip map of the same era. If we want to find out just when it was superceded by US 97 through the Yakima Canyon the State Reports will doubtless yield the facts. From postcards and maps and memory I figure this was in the late 20s but that is as close as I can get. What would be interesting to know is if the Wenas road was ever part of the US numbered highway system which I am pretty sure predates the canyon road by several years. One of my postcards show the canyon road with a new bridge but still unpaved, this suggests the work proceeded in stages as was typical of the era with its financial constraints (sound familiar Washingtonians?) To finish off the original topic "which routes shared the same Chicago alignment" perhaps the Chicago Public Library has some special collections that can help. One more thought, if I could not find the reports locally, I could always go to the WSDOT library at the state capitol, I expect the Illinois DOT might have one too. Also, the WSDOT library website has a database of historical images which are extracted from the reports, you can link to it from the WSDOT site (wsdot.gov?) The images go from unpaved roads built with convict labor to the interstate era. just a reminder, please write in to tell us the story of the beginnings of your fascination with our beloved roads and highways, thanks, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rudyard Welborn Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Thanks...map trivia is cool! The only addition I can find is that once upon a time there was a U.S. 330 that was Roosevelt Road; it turned south and was Michigan Ave. for awhile before becoming part of the roadbed for I-94 and then U.S 6 (Torrence Avenue)..ended at U.S. 30 in Chicago Heights...Tsingtao, Kip ----- Original Message ----- From: "David G. Clark" <olympia66@netzero.net> To: <AMERICAN_ROAD@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 8:48 AM Subject: [AMERICAN_ROAD] Re: Chicago walking tour (was (unknown)) > --- In AMERICAN_ROAD@yahoogroups.com, "Rudyard Welborn" > <r.Welborn@w...> wrote: > > just outta curiosity what was the topic of discussion here? I was > out of > > touch for a bit...Kip > > Kip: > > In your last post you asked about the topic of the thread. It > concerned the walking tour I am conducting in Chicago at the start of > the Illinois Route 66 Association Motor Tour. I was tying in to the > fact that it will be more than a "66" tour--many more US highways > went through or started at Jackson and Michigan in Chicago than just > 66--Highways 12, 20, 32, 34, and 41 also did to my knowledge, as well > as the Dixie Highway. Also, Illinois State Bond Issue Routes (the > early numbered state highways) 1, 4, 5, 6, 18, 19, 21 and 42 all > started there. > > In the thread, Rob Carnachan mentions US 14 and 54 as well. Rob, I > see 14 on several maps but it always seems to end on Chicago's north > side, near the lake at either Addison or just east of Peterson. If > you have a source showing it running downtown, please share. > > Good catch on US 54! I didn't think a US numbered route in the 50s > ever came through Chicago (52 skirts to the south and west), but > there it is right under my nose on maps from 1947-1948! > > For more info on this June 6th walking tour, or to just hook up with > me WHENEVER any list members are in Chicago, here's some links: > > http://www.il66assoc.org/idx_Walk03.htm > > http://www.windycityroadwarrior.com > > Dave C. > > > > Visit our homepage at: http://www.mockturtlepress.com > > To subscribe to AMERICAN ROAD magazine, PHONE TOLL-FREE 1-877-285-5434 WITH YOUR ORDER TODAY! > Or send payment to: Mock Turtle Press, PO Box 3168, Lynnwood, WA 98046-3168 > SUBSCRIPTION RATES: > 1 year (4 issues) for $15.95 > (save $3.85 off the newsstand price!) > 2 years (8 issues) for $27.95 > (save $11.65 off the newsstand price!) > > > For questions about the list, contact: AMERICAN_ROAD-owner@yahoogroups.com > > To SUBSCRIBE to this group, send an email to: AMERICAN_ROAD-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > > To UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to: > AMERICAN_ROAD-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > To POST a message via e-mail, send it to: AMERICAN_ROAD@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rudyard Welborn Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Also south of Staunton, all over St. Louis, Gray Summit, MO Etc Etc Etc... ----- Original Message ----- From: <Lulupic66@aol.com> To: <AMERICAN_ROAD@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 2:45 PM Subject: Re: [AMERICAN_ROAD] Roads crossing > In a message dated 4/24/03 10:55:27 AM Central Daylight Time, > olympia66@netzero.net writes: > > << Unfortunately, they err in saying > that Joliet is the ONLY place where the two routes crossed. > > How about where 66 crosses herself in Albuquerque? > > > Visit our homepage at: http://www.mockturtlepress.com > > To subscribe to AMERICAN ROAD magazine, PHONE TOLL-FREE 1-877-285-5434 WITH YOUR ORDER TODAY! > Or send payment to: Mock Turtle Press, PO Box 3168, Lynnwood, WA 98046-3168 > SUBSCRIPTION RATES: > 1 year (4 issues) for $15.95 > (save $3.85 off the newsstand price!) > 2 years (8 issues) for $27.95 > (save $11.65 off the newsstand price!) > > > For questions about the list, contact: AMERICAN_ROAD-owner@yahoogroups.com > > To SUBSCRIBE to this group, send an email to: AMERICAN_ROAD-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > > To UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to: > AMERICAN_ROAD-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > To POST a message via e-mail, send it to: AMERICAN_ROAD@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest brownwho63 Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 --- In AMERICAN_ROAD@yahoogroups.com, "Rudyard Welborn" <r.Welborn@w...> wrote: > Also south of Staunton, all over St. Louis, Gray Summit, MO Etc Etc Etc... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <Lulupic66@a...> > To: <AMERICAN_ROAD@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 2:45 PM > Subject: Re: [AMERICAN_ROAD] Roads crossing > > > > In a message dated 4/24/03 10:55:27 AM Central Daylight Time, > > olympia66@n... writes: > > > > << Unfortunately, they err in saying > > that Joliet is the ONLY place where the two routes crossed. > > > > How about where 66 crosses herself in Albuquerque? > > Favorite place where '66 crosses herself? Devils Elbow, MO -- 40's 4 lane alignment crosses the 20's alignment that actually runs through Devils Elbow. Still Cruisin' Route 66, Bliss > > > > Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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