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DennyG

Pp-oo In Illinois & Indiana

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OK, fellows. Here's some fuel for anyone wanting to get serious. The marker location is shown on the attached map. It's near I-72 exit 169 SW of White Heath. DeLorme, Garmin, and others label it Old Route 47 but you'll note that Old Route 47 labels are easy to come by in that area. The current IL-10 is a bit north of here but the IL-10 of today is clearly not your grandfather's IL-10. For one thing, IL-10 is described as going through Springfield in 1924 and it goes nowhere near there today. On the other hand, it seems likely that IL-10, ABB-53, and the PP-OO were one and the same for at least some distance immediately west of here. I believe that's the primary reason that Rick & I jumped to the conclusion that if this was a state road it would probably be IL-10. Anybody got a 1925 Piatt County map? :)

markerloc.gif

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Anybody got a 1925 Piatt County map? :)

 

Why, yes I do! Of course, along with however many other counties are in IL! Below is the top half of IL from my 1925 RM Jr. atlas. At that point in time where the marker is, it was IL-10 (indicated by the "10" in a circle), and the PPOO was cruising the southern route along what is now US 36.

1925_Map_052_1.jpg

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That reinforces the statement that, in 1925, IL-10 ran through Springfield and Monticello and points in between but it doesn't show which, if any, of the White Heath area roads not buried by I-72 was IL-10 of the day. I think a county (or finer) level map is in order.

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That reinforces the statement that, in 1925, IL-10 ran through Springfield and Monticello and points in between but it doesn't show which, if any, of the White Heath area roads not buried by I-72 was IL-10 of the day. I think a county (or finer) level map is in order.

 

It looks as if the route came into White Heath at an angle from the northeast, and exited White Heath due west. There is a section if you look on Mapquest (and click onto satellite mode) that would have extended back east into WH from where you have the marker on your map. That little section looks like it's grass now, but would've come to a "T" at South Meridian Street. Instinct tells me it took a jog north to *probably* High Street (since it looks like it's the main drag through town) and then took one of the three north-south streets (Willow, Orange, or Apple) north to the road that comes into White Heath from the northeast. Either way, I wouldn't mind heading over there this weekend. It's just a couple of hours at most. As for how much 72 buried old IL-10, I'm not sure it really did any kind of piggybacking in the White Heath area. It severed the heck out of it a couple of times though!

 

Jennifer did a little handy work northeast of White Heath. Again, Mapquest's satellite imagery comes in handy here identifying a missing piece of roadbed near the I-72 exit with IL-10. Google Earth is mentioned on the map, but that was done before we realized Mapquest's satellite imagery was much better. Check it out below:

1925Map052_inset.jpg

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<grumble>I'd really much rather drive out there today and see than go to work.</grumble>

 

Seems like I could make quite a road trip just exploring where IL 10 used to go.

 

I'm really impressed with the Mapquest imagery here.

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I'm really impressed with the Mapquest imagery here.

 

I am as well. I was really surprised Mapquest's images were clear where Google Earth's were the fuzzy images you typically see for images in rural areas. You'd think it'd be the other way around. We're doing some geocaching this weekend, so me wonders if the roadmaveness has any caches in east-central Illinois we need to find. :lol:

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I am as well. I was really surprised Mapquest's images were clear where Google Earth's were the fuzzy images you typically see for images in rural areas. You'd think it'd be the other way around. We're doing some geocaching this weekend, so me wonders if the roadmaveness has any caches in east-central Illinois we need to find. :lol:

 

There are an abundance of geocaches between Indianapolis and White Heath!

 

Denny, do you have a DeLorme file of the PPOO you would be willing/able to send us?

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Denny, do you have a DeLorme file of the PPOO you would be willing/able to send us?
The GPX files are still up at http://www.dennygibson.com/public_html/temp/maps_etc/ as is a PDF that I originally put there for Rick's use. The GPX that begins with the upper case G is tweaked for Garmin MapSource and the other is straight from SA2008. But... because of the road chopping, my route through the White Heath area resorted to the expressway and it was only Rick's knowledge of the area that put us on those other roads.

 

What is known is that, in this area, the PP-OO of 192x followed the IL-10 of 192x. Both Rick's Sep 26 post and Pat's Oct 4 post show the general route of IL-10 (and Rick's identifies it as the PP-OO) but neither have enough detail to show whether or not the segment beside the marker or any of the other segments were once IL-10. Satellite images and on site observations can show where some road went but not whether that road was IL-10. That, I think, requires some map/library work.

 

Jennifer, if you'd like something other that the GPX (e.g., a DMT) I can get it tonight.

 

Edited to correct links.

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The GPX files are still up at http://www.dennygibson.com/public_html/temp/maps_etc/ as is a PDF that I originally put there for Rick's use. The GPX that begins with the upper case G is tweaked for Garmin MapSource and the other is straight from SA2008. But... because of the road chopping, my route through the White Heath area resorted to the expressway and it was only Rick's knowledge of the area that put us on those other roads.

 

What is known is that, in this area, the PP-OO of 192x followed the IL-10 of 192x. Both Rick's Sep 26 post and Pat's Oct 4 post show the general route of IL-10 (and Rick's identifies it as the PP-OO) but neither have enough detail to show whether or not the segment beside the marker or any of the other segments were once IL-10. Satellite images and on site observations can show where some road went but not whether that road was IL-10. That, I think, requires some map/library work.

 

Jennifer, if you'd like something other that the GPX (e.g., a DMT) I can get it tonight.

 

Actually, the GPX file would be perfect - that is the format needed to upload to Geocaching.com to find caches along a route. But, the link above isn't working?

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Actually, the GPX file would be perfect - that is the format needed to upload to Geocaching.com to find caches along a route. But, the link above isn't working?
My goof :blush: . Here you go: http://www.dennygibson.com/temp/maps_etc/

 

(But, in my defense, I did get it right when I first posted it on Sep 16)

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:huh:

<grumble>I'd really much rather drive out there today and see than go to work.</grumble>

 

Seems like I could make quite a road trip just exploring where IL 10 used to go.

 

I'm really impressed with the Mapquest imagery here.

 

 

*!*&%!$ I am sucked into this dialog. Is the marker on the old alignment of the PPOO? I contend not. But I probably don’t understand the question :huh:

 

Clearly, the 1926 PPOO runs along the west side of the interurban (or other rail line) between Seymour and Monticello. I suggest that the exact route of the 1926 PPOO is evident using Live Search. Just follow the interurban and the road to the west of it, which is the old PPOO. I believe I can clearly see the PPOO and the interurban line paralleling each other (as expected) . Regrettably the PPOO did not go as far west as the post. :(

 

OK, tell me why I’m wrong. Wrong question, wrong interpretation, .... :unsure:

 

Keep the Show on the Road

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I'm awfully tired today, but Keep, I'm not seeing how your view of the route is different from what we've been discussing. Did I miss something?

 

BTW, I told Windows Live Local to plot a route between Seymour and Monticello, and it says to drive on the segment of road that no longer exists between E 2100 Rd N and Route 10.

 

jim

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I'm awfully tired today, but Keep, I'm not seeing how your view of the route is different from what we've been discussing. Did I miss something?

 

BTW, I told Windows Live Local to plot a route between Seymour and Monticello, and it says to drive on the segment of road that no longer exists between E 2100 Rd N and Route 10.

 

jim

 

Hi Jim,

 

I’m an old man. I don’t always get it. Have some sympathy for your elders.... :P

 

I didn’t read carefully. I figured all the fuss was about whether the post was on an old alignment of the PPOO. Then the wife came in the room and I knew where I better direct my attention, so I just fired off my message half informed.

 

This is October, right? My socks match and I think I have my shoes on the correct feet!! Whew! :rolleyes:

 

Disregard prior message, and I will go back to my nap. :blink:

 

BTW, are the links now working? Also BTW, I will probably change the URL to historicalroadmaps as I doubt I can claim they are historic. I may be slow, but I'm not dead yet! :)

 

Keep the Show on the Road!

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My 1916 ABB just arrived today... says that the route from Decatur to Springfield follows the PP-OO. Good grief, when am I going to find the time to trace the route on WLL?!!? :)

 

The postman ringing the bell to deliver aforementioned ABB caused *my* nap to be interrupted. I tried to go back to sleep, but it just wasn't happening when there were routes to explore.

 

Haven't had a moment to check your links yet, Keep, but I'll get to it.

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Hey, I'm an old guy too and, at least as far as my boss knows, haven't even had a nap today so I'll need a lot of guidance. I thought that one of the several conversations going on here did involve whether or not the "STATE R..." marker was on a PP-OO section. Then I thought that KtSotR said he was certain that the PP-OO closely paralleled the rail road and, therefore, was never near the marker. I thought the logic made sense but doubted his believe that RR and PP-OO were parallel in that area. But, before I could ask what evidence he had of their coziness, the wife and the mailman both entered and any hope I had of understanding the exchange was lost.

 

So, I'm going to act like I didn't "hear" the last three messages (Old guys do that a lot.) and go ahead and ask what convinced KtSotR that rails and road passed through there side by side?

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Hey, I'm an old guy too and, at least as far as my boss knows, haven't even had a nap today so I'll need a lot of guidance. I thought that one of the several conversations going on here did involve whether or not the "STATE R..." marker was on a PP-OO section. Then I thought that KtSotR said he was certain that the PP-OO closely paralleled the rail road and, therefore, was never near the marker. I thought the logic made sense but doubted his believe that RR and PP-OO were parallel in that area. But, before I could ask what evidence he had of their coziness, the wife and the mailman both entered and any hope I had of understanding the exchange was lost.

 

So, I'm going to act like I didn't "hear" the last three messages (Old guys do that a lot.) and go ahead and ask what convinced KtSotR that rails and road passed through there side by side?

 

Denny,

 

The 1926 PPOO guide is absolutely clear as to location along the west side of the tracks and the tracks sure look obvious on Live Search. Even what appears to be an abandoned road shows clearly on the west side of the old rail (interurban?) right of way. Given that road builders followed the tracks when they could, and didn't veer off into the hinderlands unless forced to (and the 1926 map hows no veers), I'm 85% sure without further research that the PPOO went along the tracks on the west side. That means it didn't go where the post is. But if the question is "Where did old IL 10 go, I pass for now)

 

I admit I was in a rush, but if the question is as I posed it (Was the post on the PPOO?), then I'm still betting on my first response. I think it even matches down to a little kink shown on the 1926 guide. But again, I was in a rush.

 

Keep the Show on the Road!

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We all know that old maps are often imprecise and that even modern maps can be inaccurate. So, when an amateur puts the two together, inaccuracy and imprecision abound. In the attached smashup, I didn't get the scale conversion quite right but I can get Monticello and Seymour to line up pretty close using the 1926 PP-OO guide and a DeLorme SA2008 screen shot. I think that east-west PP-OO run near today's exit 169 makes a pretty good case for either the road with the marker or the two lane next to it being part of the PP-OO.

 

Some of the IL-10 to IL-47 morphing is explained here

http://www.n9jig.com/41-60.html but there seems to be multiple routes for the short east-west chunk of IL-47 with no firm indication as to which one was IL-10. I vote for the cement road with the marker.

ppoowhiteheath.jpg

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My 1916 ABB just arrived today... says that the route from Decatur to Springfield follows the PP-OO. Good grief, when am I going to find the time to trace the route on WLL?!!? :)

 

The postman ringing the bell to deliver aforementioned ABB caused *my* nap to be interrupted. I tried to go back to sleep, but it just wasn't happening when there were routes to explore.

 

Haven't had a moment to check your links yet, Keep, but I'll get to it.

 

 

This must be the month for ABB's - I just bought a 1923 Blue Book, Volume 1 (Northeast), off ebay for the princely sum of $12. Looks real nice on the shelf beside the 1923 Volume 2 (Southeast), that I got from ebay. So now I have the east coast covered, at least for 1923.

Volume 2, unfortunately, didn't have, the map with it, a common problem with these books, but Vol. 1 does. I have found, however, that the maps, while great to have, and full of info, are not all that essential to finding routes from hither to yon. You can find the route pretty much using the index.

I was looking at the route (old U S 61, not numbered in 1923) between Clarksdale and Memphis - in Tunica the book says "4-cor. beyond sta. Right cross RR and left beyond." That fits old 61 thru Tunica to a "T" even today. Hmmmmmmmmm - another road trip (or maybe re-trip) coming up between Memphis and Clarksdale.

NOTE: Hey, Denny - get your butt down here and we'll do a run from Clarksdale to Memphis over old 61 and see how the book fits the road today.

 

Hudsonly,

Alex Burr

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Hey, Denny - get your butt down here and we'll do a run from Clarksdale to Memphis over old 61 and see how the book fits the road today.
I've just started thinking about a Christmas trip and, although I'm looking first for somewhere new, a return to Natchez via Memphis isn't out of the question. I think we were both driving toward Memphis at the same time last year but I didn't stop as long as you.

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We all know that old maps are often imprecise and that even modern maps can be inaccurate. So, when an amateur puts the two together, inaccuracy and imprecision abound. In the attached smashup, I didn't get the scale conversion quite right but I can get Monticello and Seymour to line up pretty close using the 1926 PP-OO guide and a DeLorme SA2008 screen shot. I think that east-west PP-OO run near today's exit 169 makes a pretty good case for either the road with the marker or the two lane next to it being part of the PP-OO.

 

Some of the IL-10 to IL-47 morphing is explained here

http://www.n9jig.com/41-60.html but there seems to be multiple routes for the short east-west chunk of IL-47 with no firm indication as to which one was IL-10. I vote for the cement road with the marker.

 

Well so far nobody's convinced me that the marker is not IL-10 and that IL-10 is not the PPOO. There is definitely a symbol on the marker between the R and the O on the post and it looks like a poorly inscribed "1" - so I doubt it says ROW.

 

The curved road north of White Heath that connects to the current IL-10, referred to in Pat's earlier post, still exists but is blocked off and overgrown, according to a friend who lives in Champaign. That might make a nice drive next weekend. He also says there's another IL-10 marker somewhere north of White Heath.

 

And Denny's overlapping maps are pretty convincing... I'd say that's a pretty darn good job of scale matching!

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Rte66RightOfWayMarker.jpg

http://www.cart66pf.org/66caravan/roadlog48b.htm

 

These two links include photos that are called Illinois state right-of-way markers. Neither photo shows the complete marker; all you see is some portion of the word STATE and the rest is buried. But from these photos and the accompanying text, we learn that very early (before the twenties) Illinois state right-of-way markers were cement pillars that began with "STATE." (Later markers left "STATE" off.)

 

Whether or not the marker in question reads

 

R      R
|  or  1
W      0

 

it is still a right-of-way marker.

 

Based on routing info at n9jig.com and the aerial maps available online, this marker is along "SBI (State Bond Issue) Route 10," which was authorized in 1918. While the SBI routes were Illinois' first numbering system, when the later "IL" route system was developed, this road kept its number, 10. In 1937, Route 47 was extended along Route 10's alignment through here, which is why the online maps call this "Old Route 47."

 

jim

Edited by mobilene

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Rte66RightOfWayMarker.jpg

http://www.cart66pf.org/66caravan/roadlog48b.htm

 

These two links include photos that are called Illinois state right-of-way markers. Neither photo shows the complete marker; all you see is some portion of the word STATE and the rest is buried. But from these photos and the accompanying text, we learn that very early (before the twenties) Illinois state right-of-way markers were cement pillars that began with "STATE." (Later markers left "STATE" off.)

 

Whether or not the marker in question reads

 

R      R
|  or  1
W      0

 

it is still a right-of-way marker.

 

Thanks - useful info. Note that

http://www.geocities.com/findinglincolnill...parkandcem.html

has a photo of a 1922 right-of-way marker in Lincoln IL, which looks quite different, consistent with your second reference. You never know how authoritative info from such websites is (including Wikipedia!) but when they all seem to agree, I begin to listen.

 

-Rick

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Monticello_sid_6_5246_5096_640_480.jpgMonticello_sid_6_4962_5928_640_480.jpg

Well so far nobody's convinced me that the marker is not IL-10 and that IL-10 is not the PPOO. There is definitely a symbol on the marker between the R and the O on the post and it looks like a poorly inscribed "1" - so I doubt it says ROW.

 

The curved road north of White Heath that connects to the current IL-10, referred to in Pat's earlier post, still exists but is blocked off and overgrown, according to a friend who lives in Champaign. That might make a nice drive next weekend. He also says there's another IL-10 marker somewhere north of White Heath.

 

And Denny's overlapping maps are pretty convincing... I'd say that's a pretty darn good job of scale matching!

 

Oh what more painful statement in the whole of the English language than to say “I think you are right, and I am wrong.” To be clear, I am not certain I am wrong, but the most persuasive evidence I have uncovered seems to point in that direction.

 

Above are the USGS topo views of the subject area, These are 1943 updates of 1936 and 1937 surveys, so they are not conclusive as to what existed in 1926. None the less, they show no evidence for a (my) road parallel to the tracks, and they do show a road (47) which I find has some (not all) of the characteristics of the road in the 1926 PPOO Guide. Thus one would have to find support for the notion that the post is on the old PPOO alignment.

 

Having given you guys the ammunition to support your premise, I will leave it to you to interpolate the coordinates. If an on the ground inspection of the rail right of way does not reveal an auto road bed immediately to the west of the tracks, you will have just about cinched your argument. The only further evidence would be a detailed map from the mid 20’s which would probably require a visit to the county historical society or library.

 

The map is from the University of Illinois Urbana Champagne library on line collection. Bless ‘em even if it means I have to swallow hard.

 

Keep the Show on the Road!

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You never know how authoritative info from such websites is (including Wikipedia!) but when they all seem to agree, I begin to listen.

 

Yes, yes. One unsubstantiated Web ref amounts to hearsay, two or more are thin evidence. I'm willing to draw operating conclusions based on even one Web ref, but that conclusion carries an asterisk, if you will, that means "subject to change if new evidence comes in."

 

jim

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Dang it! I scanned it so I'm going to post it even if it isn't needed. It's a bit from a 1935 Illinois map I forgot I had. It shows IL-10 connecting, as advertised, Decatur and Champaign.

 

Incidentally, did anyone else notice that the Wikipedia link mobilene posted referenced a marker identified by "Route 66 researcher Carl Johnson" who happened to be at our Alamo confab just the day before our stop at the marker. It is a small world after all.

il1935.jpg

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