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Ppoo In Eastern Ohio


DennyG
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I'm hoping to be in West Virginia over Labor Day weekend. Time constraints dictate the eastbound route but the return should be more leisurely. US-22 all the way from the state line seemed reasonable and would get me just a touch of the Pikes Peak Ocean to Ocean Highway. Twenty-two enters Ohio at Steubenville and so did the PPOO - for awhile. PPOO maps from the teens and early twenties show the Steubenville route but those from 1925 and 1927 show it passing through the town of Georges Run, OH, about eight miles south, after crossing the river at Wellsburg, WV.

 

I can approximate the routes on modern roads but the scale of those old maps leaves room for conjecture. I figure there's a pretty good chance some folks here (and you know who you are:-) could do better. My current interest is in that small are east of Cadiz.

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East of Cadiz? Here's what I'd drive.

 

Coming from WV across the Ohio on 22, I'd get on OH 43, probably via University Blvd. Past Wintersville, where 43 bears right, I'd stay straigh on CR 22-A. My guess is this is old US 22. Take it into and through Hopedale, where it becomes Old Hopedale Rd. It becomes OH 5 east of East Cadiz, and then Main St. in Cadiz.

 

I'm a little confused about where to go from within Cadiz. Seems like US 22 is the right route (though OH 2 to Brough Rd/Addy Rd could be it too).

 

I'm just guessin', based on the PP-OO strip map available at FHWA and the shape of roads on Windows Live Local.

 

jim

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East of Cadiz? Here's what I'd drive.

 

Coming from WV across the Ohio on 22, I'd get on OH 43, probably via University Blvd. Past Wintersville, where 43 bears right, I'd stay straigh on CR 22-A. My guess is this is old US 22. Take it into and through Hopedale, where it becomes Old Hopedale Rd. It becomes OH 5 east of East Cadiz, and then Main St. in Cadiz.

 

I'm a little confused about where to go from within Cadiz. Seems like US 22 is the right route (though OH 2 to Brough Rd/Addy Rd could be it too).

 

I'm just guessin', based on the PP-OO strip map available at FHWA and the shape of roads on Windows Live Local.

 

jim

I think that's pretty much the same (northern pre-192x) route I came up with but some things you said really confused me. OH-43 starts at US-22 near Wintersville and I don't believe it (OH-43) has any PPOO history. US-22 does join the four lane US-22A west of Wintersville with the straighter course becoming CR-22A so I'm guessing that's what you are referring to. DeLorme does, in fact, label the first segment of this "Old US Route 22".

 

I was even more confused with your Cadiz comments until I discovered that Deersville Ridge Road is also CR-2 so I'm pretty sure that's what you meant (OH-2 goes through Cleveland). But both PPOO routes headed more or less to Dennison so I don't think either CR-2 or US-22 are it. I think US-36 is the current PPOO west of Cadiz but one map does show two towns between Cadiz and Dennison that modern maps do not. My suspicion is that these towns, Laceyville & Franklin, are underneath Tappan Lake.

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Sorry for the confusion. I'm using Google Maps, which might help with some of the naming disconnects.

 

Google Maps shows the road I labels OH 43 as "US 22" from Wintersville east, as well. I assume this is old US 22, since current US 22 is to the north. The segment of OH 43 from current US 22 to where it Ts out in Winterville is not labeled US 22. But the road it Ts into is labeled CR 22A west of that intersection. So all of this suggests to me that this is US 22's original route through here. The TIB Guide map at FHWA makes it look like PP-OO goes through Steubenville, which OH 43 does, while current US 22 does not. I'm making a semi-educated guess that the PP-OO could have been simply numbered as US 22 here in 1926. So much of that went on across the country then that it seems a reasonable theory.

 

Of course, I could be completely off my nut here.

 

If you try this route, note that CR 22A ends at US 22 just east of Hopedale, and picks up agein a short distance later. It looks like you can climb up on US 22 for that short trip.

 

I can see that I misunderstood CR 2 as OH 2; sorry about that.

 

I agree that US 36 is probably PP-OO but I think that doesn't start until Ulrichsville; isn't that where US 36's eastern terminus is? That's why I'm guessing at US 250 or CR 2 as the PP-OO. CR 2/Deersville Ridge Rd sort of curves into Cadiz from the west, meets up with Main St. (old US 22), and curves on out of town from there -- and this sort of matches the curve that the TIB Guide map shows. US 250 does not make as graceful an entrance to Cadiz as the TIB Guide map shows. But US 250 could have been rerouted to intersect with US 22 better; perhaps Dennison Ave. there is old US 250. Boy. Cadiz is kind of a tangle isn't it? Out of Cadiz, I think that US 250

 

I found a Web site that shows the former Laceyville, OH as being under the southeastern tip of Tappan Lake, probably right where Deersville Rd. intersects US 250 there. Can't find anything on Franklin (except for another Franklin elsewhere in OH), but my guess is you're right, it's under water.

 

That these two towns were on what is now US 250 suggests that, at least from the lake to Ulrichsville, US 250 (or perhaps an older alignment that is now under water) is the PP-OO. It seems likely that 250 could be PP-OO from Cadiz to here. If my Deersville Ridge Rd. thought is right, then the PP-OO would probably have followed it to Brough Rd, then Brough up to US 250. But that seems awfully circuitous.

 

I hope this is helpful -- really, I've just enjoyed this as an exercise.

 

jim

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I'm making a semi-educated guess that the PP-OO could have been simply numbered as US 22 here in 1926. So much of that went on across the country then that it seems a reasonable theory.

Sensible theory but by then the PPOO had moved south to the Wellsburg-Georges Run route.

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Roadfinders DennyG and Mobilene,

 

My son is coming for a visit this weekend and will arrive today, so that kind of ties me up this weekend. But I have a few minutes between “Honey Dos” to look at the maps, etc

 

I am looking at the 1917 AAB centered on Cadiz. Denny says he wants to know what happens in the small area east of Cadiz. (Small is 1 mile or 50?)

 

I don’t think I have a PPOO guide other than the 1926 which I haven’t even looked at because I have the impression that Denny is looking for an earlier routing through the area. Thus the 1917 ABB. The ABB in 1917 does not identify auto trails, but if the PPOO went through Cadiz eastbound toward Steubenville, it very very likely did so as follows:

 

East on Main from the corner of Market and Main. The directions match route 5 (Old Hopedale Road) to Hopedale. Further east the old directions probably match CR-22A through Winterville to Steubenville.

 

If this is in the right neighborhood, I might find more specifics....but county level maps I don’t have.

 

Denny, can you be a little more specific about what you are looking for, specifically the area...define “small area east of Cadiz.”

 

Keep the Show on the Road!

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This particular "small" is about 20 miles - to the state line. I did initially think of only the older/northern/Steubenville route but I'm now thinking I may drive both if time permits or, if it doesn't, maybe just the newer/southern/Georges Run route. The reason for that is that the northern route has been hit by US-22 and other developments whereas the southern route may be a little less modernized and therefore more interesting. Pure conjecture, of course.

 

Does the 1926 PPOO Guide have turn-by-turn instructions? I believe I have at least images of the maps from guides for both routes but little else. I don't anticipate any problem getting the route(s) close enough for driving but some of those "turn left at Farmer Brown's red barn" bits might be fun.

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This particular "small" is about 20 miles - to the state line. I did initially think of only the older/northern/Steubenville route but I'm now thinking I may drive both if time permits or, if it doesn't, maybe just the newer/southern/Georges Run route. The reason for that is that the northern route has been hit by US-22 and other developments whereas the southern route may be a little less modernized and therefore more interesting. Pure conjecture, of course.

 

Does the 1926 PPOO Guide have turn-by-turn instructions? I believe I have at least images of the maps from guides for both routes but little else. I don't anticipate any problem getting the route(s) close enough for driving but some of those "turn left at Farmer Brown's red barn" bits might be fun.

 

DennyG,

 

I looked at the 1926 PPOO Guide. It has a non detailed 1 page map from the border to Dennison which basically shows the broad direction and the towns along the way. It does have many ads for businesses that might be fun to compare.

 

You will not find turn by turn instructions as late as 1925 or 26, unless maybe in the “wilds” of Montana or New Mexico. By 1925 the main roads were well established, and signed. The PPOO Guide for 1926 is 90% ads and 10% directions and maps.

 

As a reflection, you could almost judge the development of roads and signage by measuring the collective length of the Automobile Blue Book volumes set on a shelf. Not having done so, and working from memory, I think there were probably 7-8 fairly thick volumes in say 1916-17, and by 1925 there were, I think, two thin ones. There was no longer a need for turn by turn directions in most parts of the country.

 

I think you might be surprised at the Hopeville Road and CR 22A, at least between Cadiz and Fernwood. The Virtual Earth images show lots of open spaces, and a narrow road at least part of the way. That is a quick first impression (disclaimer) but would encourage a closer look.

 

I will scan and send the 1917 directions. Any other way I can help?

 

Keep the Show on the Road

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I will scan and send the 1917 directions. Any other way I can help?

KtSotR,

 

Don't take one minute from your guests. I'm pretty sure I can find my way with what I have. If time appears to do the a scan, it would be appreciated but, if not, I'll not mind.

 

Interesting comment on the dates and directions. It seems quite logical that the need for verbal directions would diminish with better maps and marking but I hadn't thought of it that way before. Ironic, that today, when roads at almost every level are well marked and we have detailed atlases and hi-tech navigation systems, there is a market for guide books because some of us insist on trying to follow routes that those signs and atlases don't cover.

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OH-43 starts at US-22 near Wintersville...
WRONG! :blush:

Apologizes to mobilene. My comments yesterday were based on a downlevel DeLorme installation (SA2006) I have at work and the Unofficial Ohio State Highways Web Site. Today, with SA2008 and a look at Ohio Highway Ends, I see that OH-43 now goes to OH-7 in Steubenvile. The Unofficial Ohio State Highways date is 1998 and the Ohio Highway Ends date is 2004. Apparently OH-43 grew a bit in the years between. Sorry I ever doubted you, Jim.

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DennyG,

 

I looked at the 1926 PPOO Guide. It has a non detailed 1 page map from the border to Dennison which basically shows the broad direction and the towns along the way. It does have many ads for businesses that might be fun to compare.

 

You will not find turn by turn instructions as late as 1925 or 26, unless maybe in the “wilds” of Montana or New Mexico. By 1925 the main roads were well established, and signed. The PPOO Guide for 1926 is 90% ads and 10% directions and maps.

 

As a reflection, you could almost judge the development of roads and signage by measuring the collective length of the Automobile Blue Book volumes set on a shelf. Not having done so, and working from memory, I think there were probably 7-8 fairly thick volumes in say 1916-17, and by 1925 there were, I think, two thin ones. There was no longer a need for turn by turn directions in most parts of the country.

 

I think you might be surprised at the Hopeville Road and CR 22A, at least between Cadiz and Fernwood. The Virtual Earth images show lots of open spaces, and a narrow road at least part of the way. That is a quick first impression (disclaimer) but would encourage a closer look.

 

I will scan and send the 1917 directions. Any other way I can help?

 

Keep the Show on the Road

 

 

I have a 1923 Blue Book - Voume 2, 1923 - and it runs about 750 pp. Covers the east coast from Pennsylvania to Florida, west to Mississippi, Tennessee, Kentucky and West Virginia. It says there were 4 volumes.

The directions are turn by turn. Unfortunately any maps that came with it, aren't. So you have to use the index and look up the areas you are looking for by city/town names.

There are three maps New York and Vicinity, one of which is a pretty good map of New York and Newark, the other of Staten Island (in greater detail), two North Carolina Highway System maps, one South Carolina highway system and one State Highway Department of Georgia system of state roads.

 

Hudsonly,

Alex Burr

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I have a 1923 Blue Book - Voume 2, 1923 - and it runs about 750 pp. Covers the east coast from Pennsylvania to Florida, west to Mississippi, Tennessee, Kentucky and West Virginia. It says there were 4 volumes.

The directions are turn by turn. Unfortunately any maps that came with it, aren't. So you have to use the index and look up the areas you are looking for by city/town names.

There are three maps New York and Vicinity, one of which is a pretty good map of New York and Newark, the other of Staten Island (in greater detail), two North Carolina Highway System maps, one South Carolina highway system and one State Highway Department of Georgia system of state roads.

 

Hudsonly,

Alex Burr

 

I was saying to Mobilene that I really like the 1923 - 1924 Automobile Blue Books because they usually include a description of the road surface, and road conditions. So Alex enjoy that 1923!

 

Alex is absolutely correct, the 1923, or even the 1926 ABBs have turn by turn directions. But this is a matter of comparison for me. I have between 40 and 50 Automobile Blue Books, and by 1926 the detail turn by turn directions (in Ohio and elsewhere) are very significantly fewer compared to 1917 or 1913 or 1910.

 

When I looked at the 1926 ABB for the area, there was very little useful detail on Denny’s route for 20 miles east of Cadiz, compared to 1917 directions. That applies to many road sections in the later Blue Books. It is easy to see simply in the size of the collected volumes for any one year.

 

I attribute that to two obvious factors. Between 191X and 1926 many roads were re routed, straightened, and purpose built. By that I mean in 191X the route described was a series of connected local roads linked end to end so you could get from point A to B. You needed directions like “turn left at the windmill.” By 1926 the road from A to B was built to take you from A to B, and may have been improved (e.g. graveled, even paved). It was a lot harder to get lost.

 

The second factor is that by 1926 the roads were better signed. Auto Clubs and auto trail associations, and state road departments had all put up signs. It simply was unnecessary to tell you not to turn right at 54.6 miles.

 

Gotta go!

 

Keep the Show on the Road!

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Sorry I ever doubted you, Jim.

 

Yeah, well, I was using Google Maps, which says that US 40, US 31, US 52, et al, still run through Indianapolis. And I've never been to Steubenville. So I was only reporting what a source of questionable reliability was telling me. I was just excited to be sleuthing.

 

jim

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Yeah, well, I was using Google Maps, which says that US 40, US 31, US 52, et al, still run through Indianapolis. And I've never been to Steubenville. So I was only reporting what a source of questionable reliability was telling me. I was just excited to be sleuthing.

 

jim

 

I admit I haven’t had the opportunity to carefully track this thread, but am I to understand that Mr. American Road Alignment missed a turn? The sky has suddenly darkened and I feel strangely uneasy. :o

 

Now I’m intrigued. If Jim might have, just might have, possibly, even conceivably, maybe placed too much confidence in a map, what now for the rest of us! :unsure:

 

I confess I don’t even know where we are going except somewhere between Ohio and West Virginia that involves some town called Cadiz. :) Oh and Strubenville...and BTW I found a small period auto map of Strubenville in my stuff...am I the map guy or what!! :P If Strubenville is in those stacks, what other treasures lurk just below the dust and cobwebs? :blink:

 

I’ll dig some more before Denny goes...But Mobilene, tell me it isn’t so! It was the map, right!? :D

 

Keep the Show on the Road!

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Rest easy, my friend, the map I used appears to be right. I was jus sayin' that I was running a risk because I was using a source that I knew contained errors elswehere. I was just caught up in the heat of the moment.

 

You know, Steubenville, where Dean Martin was from.

 

jim

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...tell me it isn’t so!

It ain't so.

 

Mobilene - and Mobilene's maps - are right. I was wrong. We were both talking about the same route but I was looking at what are apparently out of date sources which did not show one section labeled as a state route. The change seems to have been made between 1999 and 2004.

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Rest easy, my friend, the map I used appears to be right. I was jus sayin' that I was running a risk because I was using a source that I knew contained errors elswehere. I was just caught up in the heat of the moment.

 

You know, Steubenville, where Dean Martin was from.

 

jim

 

Ah, all is right with the world again and the birds are singing over the white cliffs of Dover.

 

Dean Martin...didn't he play for the 1936 Yankees? Oh, that Dean Martin. We called him der Bingle..no no that was what we called that Elvis fellow. Dean was the King of Rock and Roll, along with his faithful dog Lassie and his horse Trigger. Oh, those were the good ole days!

 

Keep the Show on the Road!

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Yeah, well, I was using Google Maps, which says that US 40, US 31, US 52, et al, still run through Indianapolis. And I've never been to Steubenville. So I was only reporting what a source of questionable reliability was telling me. I was just excited to be sleuthing.

 

jim

 

Google Maps is funny that way. When you look at Indy on Google from a larger view, it has all roads on I-465 where they currently run. However, zooming in on downtown they show Routes 31 & 40 on their old alignments through town. However, hats off to this: They co-label Washington Street through town as The Historic National Road. Now, if Google still had old SR-431 through town....THAT would be something! :D

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Denny,

 

While our houseguest was taking a nap...these young guys just can't keep up... I found the the Cleveland Public Library has a great maps site. It is at http://www.railsandtrails.com/Maps/default.htm.

 

It has auto maps from the period you are looking at.

 

Let me know if they help. I was really impressed, but only checked a few. They even had county level maps for all counties in Ohio in 1919....almost brings tears of joy to my eyes!!! Just about justifies a trip to Ohio!

 

At your service....Keep the Show on the Road!

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Google Maps is funny that way. When you look at Indy on Google from a larger view, it has all roads on I-465 where they currently run. However, zooming in on downtown they show Routes 31 & 40 on their old alignments through town. However, hats off to this: They co-label Washington Street through town as The Historic National Road. Now, if Google still had old SR-431 through town....THAT would be something! :D

 

 

Here in Memphis, Streets & Trips has a quirk - look for Summer or Union Avenues (two that I've noticed) and typing in Summer Avenue will get you Summer Terrace in the middle of nowhere. Typing in Union Avenue will get you Union - but only west of Danny Thomas Blvd. East of there, if you click on Union Ave all you'll get are U S Route numbers. U S 51 north of, and coming down into, downtown is the same way - and not even labled as Danny Thomas Blvd (or Thomas Avenue further out).

 

Hudsonly,

Alex Burr

 

 

Denny,

 

While our houseguest was taking a nap...these young guys just can't keep up... I found the the Cleveland Public Library has a great maps site. It is at http://www.railsandtrails.com/Maps/default.htm.

 

It has auto maps from the period you are looking at.

 

Let me know if they help. I was really impressed, but only checked a few. They even had county level maps for all counties in Ohio in 1919....almost brings tears of joy to my eyes!!! Just about justifies a trip to Ohio!

 

At your service....Keep the Show on the Road!

 

 

I have one of those Goodrich Tour Books, like the one shown on the Cleveland Library site - mine is New England North.

Having until recently having lived in the Kennebunk area, was interested in how things have changed - for one thing the trolley tracks mentioned in some of the routings are no longer there. :(

 

Hudsonly,

Alex Burr

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Denny,

 

While our houseguest was taking a nap...these young guys just can't keep up... I found the the Cleveland Public Library has a great maps site. It is at http://www.railsandtrails.com/Maps/default.htm.

 

It has auto maps from the period you are looking at.

 

Let me know if they help. I was really impressed, but only checked a few. They even had county level maps for all counties in Ohio in 1919....almost brings tears of joy to my eyes!!! Just about justifies a trip to Ohio!

 

At your service....Keep the Show on the Road!

Wonderful stuff. I knew of the site and even had it bookmarked but didn't think to look. (I need to come up with a better label that the site's name: "Transportation Maps".) I don't recall all the county maps being there before but... The site is obviously not stagnant. At first pass, the 1919 maps seem to reinforce my/our current thinking on routes.

 

Good find, KtSotR. Hope your guest catches up on his sleep.

 

I didn't know people had to justify trips to Ohio. Isn't it a dream we're all born with?

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Alex,

 

I forget that you were a New England Guy before you were a Tennessee Fellow. Now you have to start shopping for Tennessee stuff! Goodrich did some nice stuff.

 

The trollys, streetcars, and interurban are always interesting. There was a whole period of our transportation history when they dominated. They changed the urban to the suburban, and created a lot of our little strip towns along their old routes.

 

There are lots of places, including my area (Puget Sound) where people wish they hadn’t torn up the tracks and disposed of the right of ways.

 

BTY my father worked in his early years as a conductor on streetcars in So. Cal. (Pacific Electric) before I was born, so it is a little in my blood!

 

Keep the Show on the Road

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Wonderful stuff. I knew of the site and even had it bookmarked but didn't think to look. (I need to come up with a better label that the site's name: "Transportation Maps".) I don't recall all the county maps being there before but... The site is obviously not stagnant. At first pass, the 1919 maps seem to reinforce my/our current thinking on routes.

 

Good find, KtSotR. Hope your guest catches up on his sleep.

 

I didn't know people had to justify trips to Ohio. Isn't it a dream we're all born with?

 

Denny,

 

Glad it helped to jog your memory. We should check with Becky as to how the links collection is coming. This is the kind of link I want to remember and share.

 

I have never touched the ground in Ohio, but your line definitely brought a chuckle!! Keen wit! Nicely turned as well!

 

The members of this gang who live in the Midwest (I suppose Ohio is Midwest, not East) have really enlightened me as to the beauties and goodies to enjoy. I am more interested now in taking a US tour and spending more time in that area.

 

I have covered the Far West (WA, OR, CA, AZ, NV, ID) and most of Utah so thoroughly in 50 years of road tripping, it is next to impossible to find a new paved through road to travel anymore. It now takes me two days of driving to get to virgin territory. So maybe the dream is Ohio!

 

Keep the Show on the Road!

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