Keep the Show on the Road! Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 One of our new members asked a question via the message system. I won’t identify him because he may prefer to do that himself, but I think it was a great question for us to toss around a bit. He asked how long it would take a caravan of three cars to drive between Joseph, Oregon and Salem, Oregon in early March, 1921. This was a group of Joseph basketball players on their way to the state tourney in Salem. It was a distance of 350-375 miles. I am going to take a stab at an answer and will appreciate any help. I have a 1921 Automobile Blue Book which describes the road conditions in that year on the route over the Blue Mountains, along the Columbia River to Portland, then down to Salem, which I’m thinking would be in better condition in early March than roads directly across the state, which were unimproved. The worst part would have been over the Blue Mountains between La Grande and Pendleton. Here is the description: Then the road was under construction between Pendleton and The Dalles. That means that maybe you could take this route in early March, maybe not. Then the road was graveled between The Dalles and Hood River and paved to Portland along the famous Columbia River Highway. All but 6 miles between Portland and Salem was paved, and it was dirt, but being paved in 1921. The estimate I would use for the paved and graveled sections would be maybe an average of 20 miles per hour on a dry day during daylight and 15 on a rainy day, or after dark. (other opinions???) I don’t have a 1921 ABB that covers the Joseph to La Grande section, but in 1919 the ABB identifies the road as dirt and gravel. The section between Joseph and La Grand might be 15 miles an hour on a dry day in daylight and almost anything if it was raining and they had to contend with mud and slick roads. If you have been on that road, you know the Minam Hill grade would have grown hair on a grapefruit even when it was dry. Over the Blue Mountains between La Grande and Pendleton on the Old Oregon Trail they might be running fully chained up, with shovels at the ready, and likely have at least one stop to change a tire, perhaps more. In fact even if it wasn’t raining, in early March they had to chain up in muddy spots and through snow patches and drifts. And if they made it over the rocky stretch in the Blues without a blowout, it was probably something to brag about. And can you imagine how cold it would have been at 4000 foot elevations in early March in cars that had no heaters, and that were basically open with only a fabric shell between you and mother nature? (Just "for the record," today, March 16, tonight and tommorow snow is predicted for the Blue Mountains, and remember they were traveling in early March.) I have driven that old road, which now is paved, and it snakes down the Blues on steep grades and tight turns even today. Near the top of the grade is “Boiling Point,” named for good reason. I have to do a little research, but when did cars get four wheel brakes, and when did they get hydraulic brakes? I’ll take a look at some ads, but it is likely that these folks were driving with mechanical brakes on the two rear wheels. If you have tried to stop your car with your hand brake (mechanical on back two wheels) on a nice flat street, imagine the thrill on a 10% grade in mud in a car carrying 4 or 5 big and heavy athletes and their gear! Even if you didn’t get stuck in mud, dally in a roadside ditch, or didn’t have a blowout or two among three cars, you always had the likelihood of a mechanical breakdown. Broken springs were common. Of course they would have carried towlines, water, and perhaps extra oil, and gasoline. But no cell phones or AAA! The road between Pendleton and the The Dalles was under construction, and in those days there was no provision for nice detours. You were rerouted across the farmer’s fields, and perhaps in those days across the sand that lined the Columbia River banks before the dams were put in. Chains were more often used for sand than mud. If you have ever driven on a well packed dirt road, then run into a long patch of sand, you know you might bury even a 4 wheel drive with today’s wide balloon tires. Sand was worse than mud in many cases because mud usually had a bottom. The road beyond Hood River, with the exception of 6 miles of dirt between Portland and Salem, was paved. So I’m guessing with very good fortune they made it in two very long days, but just as likely three. Dave Keep the Show on the Road! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennyG Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 At almost exactly this time (their trip ended on March 5, 1921) my great-grandparents were traveling in the east. I believe their best day was about 125 miles and any day they covered over 100 miles was worth remarking on. I have the impression that 75-80 was typical. On the other hand, in a thread here, Pat Bremer tells of his grandfather covering 350 miles a day in July of 1921. Pat's folks were traveling between Indianapolis and New York and were on one of the better roads in the country. Mr Bremer was on the way to see a lady friend who he must have thought worth putting in some hours. On the 350 mile day (actually 356) they were on the road from 3:00 AM to 8:00 PM with "gas" stops only. 356 miles in 17 hours is just about the 20 MPH you guessed (20.94). My folks were traveling around Florida and other eastern states and on a variety of roads. They did not put in particularly long days. That 125 mile day was on good hard surface road so a driving day of around six hours seems reasonable. So, if six hours was Granddad's typical driving day and 75 miles was a typical day's distance, then 10-12 MPH must have been the typical speed over typical roads. Your young basketballers would certainly put in longer days than Granddad but probably not as long as the hard charging Bremer. Their roads were certainly not as good as what Bremer was on and maybe not even as good as what Granddad was typically on. At 20 MPH, that 375 miles could have been covered in a couple of nine-hour days. At 12 MPH, maybe three ten-hour days. So two days seems rather unlikely and even three could be challenging. But that's my guess. Three days; same as your "likely" case. Of course, it wouldn't take much in the way of car, weather, or road problems to make it four or more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keep the Show on the Road! Posted March 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 Denny, Thanks for your thoughtful and documented analysis! I think you are right on with your observations. I can't help think that any average I might put out is a wild guess. I have in mind this image I've seen of two guys coming over the northern California mountains into Oregon, with their car stuck in 8 inch deep mud with the rear axle sitting in the road about 10 feet behind the car. Now that could really spoil your average time! Dave Keep the Show on the Road! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deuelio Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 Thanks guys, for your input on this. Very interesting. Interestingly enough to me, the following year Joseph made the trip to Salem again. The newspapers from Joseph made mention of fundraising efforts to send the boys via train in 1922. Ultimately, the fundraising goal was reached the boys were sent via train in 1922. I'm guessing the trip was tough enough in 1921 that they thought they'd send their boys in luxury in 1922. In case you were wondering, after traveling all the way from Joseph to Salem in 1921, the Joseph team lost their only game in the Capitol City 65-9 to Eugene! They shouldn't feel too bad though, Joseph's enrollment was 54 compared to over 700 for Eugene! I have many other stories like this, Heppner traveled to Salem in 1920, Rainier in 1920, Madras in 1920 and many more. I do appreciate your input on this topic all. Regards, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keep the Show on the Road! Posted March 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 Thanks guys, for your input on this. Very interesting. Interestingly enough to me, the following year Joseph made the trip to Salem again. The newspapers from Joseph made mention of fundraising efforts to send the boys via train in 1922. Ultimately, the fundraising goal was reached the boys were sent via train in 1922. I'm guessing the trip was tough enough in 1921 that they thought they'd send their boys in luxury in 1922. In case you were wondering, after traveling all the way from Joseph to Salem in 1921, the Joseph team lost their only game in the Capitol City 65-9 to Eugene! They shouldn't feel too bad though, Joseph's enrollment was 54 compared to over 700 for Eugene! I have many other stories like this, Heppner traveled to Salem in 1920, Rainier in 1920, Madras in 1920 and many more. I do appreciate your input on this topic all. Regards, Mark I was going to ask why they didn't take the train, and now I know! The railroad had a branch into that area beginning in 1906 or 1909, I forget which, so a train trip would have been a lot easier, but apparently a lot more expensive. I'm sorry that Joseph got nailed so badly in 1921 by the big city boys. When I get to Joseph next time, I will have to spend more time in the museum there to see if I can spot a photo of the brave boys froim the Wallows! Are you getting your stories out of newspapers? Dave Keep the Show on the Road! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deuelio Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 I was going to ask why they didn't take the train, and now I know! The railroad had a branch into that area beginning in 1906 or 1909, I forget which, so a train trip would have been a lot easier, but apparently a lot more expensive. I'm sorry that Joseph got nailed so badly in 1921 by the big city boys. When I get to Joseph next time, I will have to spend more time in the museum there to see if I can spot a photo of the brave boys froim the Wallows! Are you getting your stories out of newspapers? Dave Keep the Show on the Road! Dave, They might have taken the train in 1921, the paper doesn't say. My guess is they did take the train in 1921. The town was crazy in their support for the team, cramming nearly 600 people into their gym for a big game against Enterprise. Then, a few nights later the whole town traveled up to Enterprise for the championship game of the district. Needless to say, the town of Joseph supported their teams with fervor. My sources are newspapers from the era, viewed on Microfilm that I receive from the Knight Library in Eugene. I truck over to the Tigard Library at lunch time and view the reels. It's a great set up. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutchman Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 Hey Dave, it has been a while. As far as brakes went......Henry didn't put hydraulics on Fords until '38......I think. I know the 36s did not have them and the 38s did. Not too sure about 37 but if I was bettin' I would say not until '38. Chevys had them much earlier. Seems kind of chancy today producing a car with a V8 that would go 100 mph and equipping it with mechanical brakes! Must not have been much product liability issues in those days! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keep the Show on the Road! Posted June 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 Hey Dave, it has been a while. As far as brakes went......Henry didn't put hydraulics on Fords until '38......I think. I know the 36s did not have them and the 38s did. Not too sure about 37 but if I was bettin' I would say not until '38. Chevys had them much earlier. Seems kind of chancy today producing a car with a V8 that would go 100 mph and equipping it with mechanical brakes! Must not have been much product liability issues in those days! Hey Hutchman!! Long time no see. Glad to see your post. Wow, so it was the mid 1930's before we had hydraulic brakes. So all the auto trail trips we discuss here were driven with mechanical brakes. We were “close” to your “neck of the woods” a few weeks ago, when our grand daughter graduated at WSU. We came back along the Snake to Clarkston and through Pomeroy, and considered going via the Tri Cities, and over White Pass, but opted instead for Snoqualmie. Good to “see” you! Dave Keep the Show on the Road! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutchman Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 Ot, but related to the brake discussion: http://www.motorera.com/history/hist07.htm Some of the info is not quite correct, but generally a good read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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