sit properly

Ok, looks to me that the motel would have been in the coulee. Here is my googlemap of it. B = Hotel (at 3.8 miles from A, which is "Turn Left along telephone line") C = Summit at 7.3 The mileage matches perfectly. http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source...e=UTF8&z=14 It looks like the old road followed RD 2 out of Davenport. I was going to add all this stuff to my maps (and I still might), but I think I might just make a whole map from the ABB pages you just posted. Sure, why not? But for now, what do you think?

Oh har har har! I was hoping you'd find it punny. I finished the book last night. I skipped some parts, I admit, but would completely recommend it to anyone interested in that area. That's some weird geological history right there.

I just updated two of my maps based on the maps that Dave posted and the comments John made here: http://americanroadmagazine.com/forum/inde...?showtopic=1180 As for when, it had to have been prior to 1915 as I have a PDF of a 1915 map with the names/numbers on it. And it looks like you've figured it out. 1913. Big year for roads! It was officially a year after the YT was organized, but I bet it wasn't till 1913 or after that it was figured out for Washington (egads! I should know this... definitely by 1915 with that race and all). Also, the Lincoln Highway was founded in 1913. A year after National Old Trails Highway too! (ok, maybe 1912 was a bigger year, but still). I think you're definitely right about the state names being more popular in Washington than the national names. Everywhere I read anything about old roads, they're almost always mentioning the state names rather than national names. Made it a bit confusing at first. Ok, fun mapping night. Thanks! Eric

Dave! This is great! My goodness, I'm really excited about this! John has a lot of good suggestions, the Mt. View Cemetery one is the only one that I can recall from the top of my head. I'm going to update my maps based on yours fairly directly. The road going up Moses Coulee is practically on top of (or under) US 2. At the top, there's Sulpher Springs Road and as far as I could tell, it's not accessible. Maybe heading west it is. It's definitely walkable and would be a fun little loop to check out. We'll be doing that soon enough. Off I go! Edit - well whaddya know... I *did* use Rambo > Mt View Cemetery RD on my maps! But how did the YT get through Davenport to Main ST? What of Chip Dump Road near Creston? I'm betting yes on that one. The name is great, too. I agree with John on the alignment west of Almira. The X Road is named Childers RD on GoogleMaps. John's routing from Grand Coulee to Moses Coulee (which would have been 12 RD NE > L RD NE > 1 RD NE down into Moses Coulee) seems plausible as an early alignment, but as a later one? And yes, the Roads took 9th Ave in East Wenachee to Bridge ST in Wenachee. That bridge is still there, but it's now used for some sort of pipes or something. Also, what is/where is Pine Canyon RD? I haven't come across it.

I just stumbled onto this post tonight and am really surprised nobody commented on this. What a find! 25 or so miles of bricked road? That's pretty long. You say some of it is drivable, but how much of it is walkable? Would be a nice trail project, no? Unless it's mostly a frontage road, then might not be so pleasant. -Eric

The falls look great! I'll have to find my way out there sometime. As for mom and pop motels, I realize it wasn't so close, but in Wilber, The Willows Motel is great! I stayed there last summer. In my blog, I write, "it's a good place run by some nice folks." And for the floods, I've been reading Glacial Lake Missoula and it's Humongous Floods before bed every night. It's very well written, but dry (though not nearly as dry as I thought it would be). Thanks for the tip! Is the Joso RR bridge still in use? -Eric

Dave, Yep, I completely understand the stairstep roads. It's fun to see them because instead of right angles, they're usually just sharp curves. Rt 66 in Illinois and Missouri has a ton of these. I've seen some in WA (on maps, not so much in person, except the brick road @ 196th AVE). I get what you're saying about No and then Yes. But even "deeper" than that is that there are NPH segments that were abandoned prior to 1925, when the YT moved north. Before '25, was the Sunset Highway and NPH the same exact road from Waterville to Spokane? It's these old segments that really make me smile. US 2 is a beautiful road and I'm glad it wasn't made into an interstate, but the old roads around it are wonderful. Can't wait to see your finished map and compare it to mine (which is pure speculation). I'm interested to see how close my guesses are to what's actually correct. I'm betting I'm close and if I am, high fives for everyone. From Coulee City to Hartline isn't surprising. I thought something was up there, but wasn't sure how far away from US 2 it wandered. From Hartline, I assume it went through Hanson as well, before squiggling down Hanson Station Road to Almira. There's also some suspicious looking old alignments around Almira (Maxwell RD > Childers RD > US 2 - I'm pretty convinced that that is an old alignment, but might be later than NPH or YT) So the million-penny question is how many of these segments were still used by 1925. Which were not? I'm assuming the Sunset Highway used all, from the earliest till it was decommissioned. * This is exciting. Can't wait to get back out there. As for the scooters, the Ruckus is great, but if the Rough House is cheaper, I'd go for that. Genuine Scooters is a great company and, like Honda, has great dealer support. So definitely feel safe with either. -Eric *PS - Wikipedia says that the Sunset Highway existed from 1937 – 1964, which is actually the dates of Primary State Highway 2 - they say they're the same, but that's not quite true. What were the years of the actual Sunset Highway?

Hm.. I'm not sure how much you're willing to drop (or how much room you have) - an electric bike might work. In the scooter area, the Honda Ruckus is fun and would probably do it. There's also the Rough House (which is a dumb name): http://genuinescooters.com/scooters/roughh...roughhouse.html So the old road west of Waterville is a no-go in a sedan? Ok. I'll have to tackle it myself. I don't really like walking old alignments, either. But mostly, I'm just lazy. -Eric

Hey there Dave, Can't wait to see the results. I've not done much at all from Waterville > east. I did notice that there were a lot of abandoned sections too and I think I've got a bunch of them in my maps, but am anxious to see what else there might be. I'm not sure that I've found nearly half the road to be abandoned, so that should mean that there are things I've missed. That's pretty exciting. Thanks! We were going to go to North Bend today via Kirkland and return via Issaqua, but I think we'll have to put that off for another day - we're feeling a bit lazy. So, between Coulee City and Spokane, are the YT and NPH exactly the same? I can't imagine why they wouldn't be (through that area anyway). Did you happen to check out the squiggly old road just west of Waterville? I'm anxious to try it. -Eric

I've been slacking here a bit. Yesterday, we were able to explore a very small segment of old YT (from 1912-1916) along Fish Hatchery Road, just east of Fall City. I'd documented that here with a map and pictures. There are two segments to the road and I'm 100% sure it followed the eastern segment, but am not totally sure about the western (though probably). In the ABB from 1917 explains that at 1.4 miles after crossing the bridge heading east out of Fall City that there is a fork and you should take it right. "Road to the left may be road for 1917." I'll have to see a slightly later ABB to see if that happened, but I'm assuming it did. The "road to the left" is WA 202. The road to the right is Fish Hatchery Road. The 1.4 miles, by the way, is the "eastern segment" of Fish Hatchery Road. Today, the road doesn't connect with 202 there, but runs right next to it for a short spell. This doesn't mean that the "western segment" of FHR wasn't the YT/Sunset Highway/NPH, of course (as the newer 202 road wouldn't have even been there and there would still be a fork in the road either way at 1.4 miles), but it does make me uncertain. We visited the falls and because of the floods, it was massive. We were on the lower observation deck. It's like a rain forest down there. This is near where the etching in the 1917 ABB was made. It claims to be 268 ft. from the Sunset Highway, but that's sort of misleading. The view in the book isn't 286 ft from the Sunset Highway, it's about 3/4 of a mile, which would include some walking as, from where it was taken, there's no way a road could exist. There *was* an old road there at one point, however. It was a corduroy road for the sawmill that was located right where the old YT take a quick turn to the left, up modern day 372nd Ave. There's a little historical plaque describing it. The upper part of the falls was 286 ft from the Sunset Highway. This really confused me, as I had images of the original highway going really close to the bottom of the falls. After being there, it's very clearly impossible. So, according to the ABB from 1917 (and the 1915-16 one - though it's not nearly as descriptive), Fish Hatchery Road was part of the old YT/SH/NPH. I've just written a whole bunch of words about a segment of road that isn't even a mile long. And you've just read them. -Eric ps - be sure to check out the pics, if you like.

Oh this is just delightful! I'm fairly excited to rip into this. It's a shame that there aren't separate alignments for YT and NPH in Washington (that I know of... yet?). But the separate routings though Idaho and Montana is pretty fun.

So that raises a question - who signs the roads? Does the state sign federal roads? If so, then they make their own signs and the workers are given a pile and told to put them up. The folks who make them don't know where they're going and the folks who put them up, have no say in what/where to hang them. I wonder how many people notice that the wrong signs are up.

Since US 99 was decommisioned in '64, it's not an old sign. My bet is that they screwed up. Oregon does that. There is a US 19 sign on Oregon Route 19 that I found last summer...

Oh I've heard about a ton of bad experiences with them. They were very willing to share all the bad things folks say about them. Heck, they admit to most of them! I'd recommend a visit to only certain people.

Ha! They're not for everyone, but they really hit the spot on that chilly May afternoon.

Like Jim, I'm basically a professional introvert. When approached, I'm pretty friendly, but generally I'll keep my distance. Unlike Becky, I look for the place with no cars in the parking lot. That I'm a strict vegetarian, this usually means the Chinese place where nobody ever eats. I'm not a drinker, so the bars are out of the question. I've always wanted to be the social guy, but as I'm riding through a town, I mostly keep to myself. There have been some occasions where I was basically abducted and forced to be social. The most notable was in Erick, Oklahoma on Route 66. Harley and Annabelle rescued me from a spring monsoon and took me into their shop (where you can't buy anything), warmed me up, sang me a bunch of songs and turned my day around. So basically, for me to make friends on the road, I have to be abducted. I guess I'm a sucker for Stockholm Syndrome. -Eric

Work sure can. And I've got a lot to memorize too. I'm pretty bad at that. My brain is basically pudding at this point. It's good to hear about the ABBs basically being gospel. The left for right thing is such an easy mistake to make. I do it all the time (which is fine if you have an accompanying map, but can really get you lost of you don't). And I'd have to agree that they seem to have driven a lot of it both ways. Or maybe they just had some guy sitting on the back bumper taking notes. But the "other way" directions are a huge help when trying to map it out. Whatever "skills" I've gained is because of the good work of old dogs before me. That and actually doing a ridiculous amount of traveling with old alignments as the "destination." For some people, it's just getting to some destination. For others, it's the trip. For me, it's the roads that people used to take to get to wherever they were going. It's really specific and fairly vague all at the same time. Fun! Youre right about those just wanting a detour. I've seen that quite a bit on 66. I always got a kick out of folks who said, "we're driving Route 66!" But had just gotten off the interstate when I hadn't touched the super slab at all yet. I was in Texas when that happened (about to take I-whatever around Jericho Gap). I guess "taking old alignments" means different things to different people. I get caught up in my own deal from time to time. I should try to not do that. Still, find me a dirt road that used to be part of a cross-continent road and I'm a happy guy. Told you my brain was pudding... -Eric

It's funny, Sarah can tell when I'm mapping because I'm sitting at the computer making disgruntled sounds of frustration. "You're mapping again, aren't you?" "Apparently not." It's fun! Routing old roads is nice, but honestly, I'm not sure about most of this. The mileage sometimes matches up perfectly and other times I'm just guessing. Street names have been changed, buildings that are referenced haven't been there in 80 years. And ahh, the interstates! I'm guessing that each year of the ABBs I look at will have a few changes here and there for the YT. That was the case with Route 66 and at times, you had to do a lot of back tracking to hit just the main alignments (Illinois comes to mind). The trip over the state is postponed for a bit, but will happen before too long, I hope. I'm in the middle of obtaining a job or two, so I'll have to sort out my schedule and see what's what. That just gives me more time to dive into this. Here's a question - are the ABBs ever wrong? I mean, where did they get *their* information? Thanks again! Eric

Dave! I'm going to say "no" for 1915, but by 1917, it seems like they did! Actually, the whole routing is almost identical to the 1924 routing. The differences are pretty surprising. First, here is the map of the 1917 YT alignment from Seattle to North Bend. In 1917, the YT did *not* use the brick road outside of , instead taking what would seem to be the more logical route, modern 202. Why, by 1924, they found it necessary to use the brick road, I have no idea, but, according to the ABBs, that seems to be true. The routing through Kirkland and Redmond is probably impossible to gather from the ABBs. It's very "you had to be there." I did my best and came up with the same routing using both the 1917 and 1924 ABBs. From what I could gather, in the 1917 alignment, the YT used Fish Hatchery Road, just east of Fall City and passed through what is now Snoqualmie Falls park area. The road is gone, but some of it can be followed. By 1924, modern 202 was used. After the falls, the 1917 alignment crossed what is now 202 onto what is now Stearns RD onto Mill Pond RD, just north of 202. By 1924, 202 was used. The 1917 alignment avoided Snoqualmie (the town). Mill Pond RD went to Meadow Brook Farm. There, the 1924 alignment, which went through Snoqualmie, joins with it on Park ST, continuing to modern 202. The alignment through North Bend is the same, as is the stretch to where it meets the interstate. What did I learn from this? I learned that there are more "back road" that were old alignments. That's a good and fun thing. If it was just 202, it would be ok, but not a nice as some back road. Bummer about missing Snoqualmie though, it's one of my favorite little town... but I'm a big train geek. Ok, backing up a bit. John thinks the YT in 1915 went through Bothell? That's interesting since it's the exact opposite direction I expected it to have gone. The 1916 ABB (according to Wiseguy) has it a bit differently. But really, maybe it was just whatever was the best way that year. Maybe there were no official big city routes. As for the book and/or website... I'm not sure just yet. I'll let it develop (or not) naturally. As usual, I have a feeling that the only folks *this* interested in such things are having a conversation about them right here, right now. Thanks a bunch for posting the ABB pages. This was a big help. It shows that by 1917, the route through Seattle was pretty well set till 1924 (at least). That's great, as I thought that not to be true. And the added bonus of new back road alignments! Good stuff! Thanks! -Eric ps - No need to update my 1924 map of Seattle, but the general map of Fall City to Cle Elum needs some updates. Thanks again!

Ok... here's a map of the ABB you posted from North Bend to Seattle. It's VERY VERY speculative around the Issaquah and Redmond areas. The ABB is vague (for using today) and tons of railroad and highway stuff has changed since then. Seattle, however, was pretty easy. Take a look.

Dave, Please keep in mind that I am often "wildly speculating." But as far as the 1915 routing, I really don't know. I read it somewhere in here and it was from a 1916 ABB (if memory serves me)... I'll look for it, but I don't believe you were the one who posted it, but I think you were in on the conversation. As for the later Rainier Road alignment, that's from the Hobbs Guide on your site. The "middle" alignment is the one up Madison and across the ferry. But as for the 1915ish routing, I remember seeing somewhere that it used a ferry to Issaqua (though may not have gone through the quaint little town). I'm assuming that the YT followed the Sunset Highway till it got to North Bend. That's probably the routing that it took. Maybe it grabbed a ferry at some point (there's one in bold on the map). Maybe they didn't designate the routing in the cities till later. And if that's so, well, easy for us since if there's no original routing, there's no original routing to find! Which begs the question, what *was* the earliest known YT routing through Seattle? My guess is that it followed the 1915ish routing of the Sunset Highway. I mean, why wouldn't it? -Eric Edit: I think I found what I was thinking of here... http://americanroadmagazine.com/forum/inde...post&p=7283 "Checking the 1916 Blue Book, it gives yet a different routing in the Seattle area, with the Trail starting/ending at 2nd Av and Pike St. It then went northeast/east on Pike to curve left onto Madison St "running up steep grade", then south on 17th Av, east on Cherry St, north on 34th Av and "down long winding grade" onto 'Hugo Place'. Then it continued south on Lakeside Av "running along shore of Lake Washington" to the ferry landing. It then crossed Lake Washington via the Issaquah Ferry and followed a more southerly routing towards Fall City, WA." This was posted by "Wiseguy." It looks like a different routing than the books you posted. And I have no idea what "Hugo Place" is. And a few other streets are missing, though it's not a gnarly as what happened to the streets from the ABB you just posted. Yikes!

Dave, Thanks for posting the ABB sections and maps! It's really interesting and amazingly frustrating trying to figure it out. Very few of the streets remain, especially around the airport. It's very literally gone. Some streets are renamed and that's "easy" enough to figure out, but many no longer exist. So I thought I'd try working my way back to Seattle. Turns out, this isn't the YT at all! You unload your cars from a train, which is one of the coolest things I've heard in a LONG time. But sadly, this isn't the YT. The YT may have used some of the same streets in Seattle, etc, but overall, this is not our beloved trail! It certainly wasn't a waste of time though. Now I want to head up to Cedar Falls to see if anything remains of the old station/platform and of that windy road over the summit and then along the river to North Bend. Also, I keep seeing the word "Ry." - what might that mean? Thanks for the fun. Even if it's not the YT, it was worth it. I will probably come back to this later today and see if I can map it from North Bend into Renton. -Eric

Dave, Well, for now that's pretty much all the good stuff I've got. Now, instead of cranking, I'll be refining. Not really sure why the strip maps are so interesting to me, they don't really clear up much, especially outside of a city. But they sure are fun to look at. From this I assumed that the earliest alignment of YT took Jackson to the ferry to Newport and then to Issaqua. What's great about this map is that all three alignments out of the city are basically shown. The alignments inside Seattle's downtown aren't, but the general idea is there. That's nice. Thanks for the scan of the map, it's saved and thanks for offering to scan more ABBs, that would make my day. You're one of the good ones, Dave! -Eric

Dave, I'm actually not sure what the Seattle Libraries have. Their descriptions are vague and jumbled. I'm honestly not sure what I need. Whatever they have is in the central, downtown library. I have never been there and with these books, I believe you have to go there to see them. Basically, how I like to do the mapping is if an old road at any time took what we today think of as a side road, map the side road and forget the "main road." So really, I'm confused as to what I need as well. The 1924 Blue Book that you've been posting has been perfect. Maybe that and the strip maps from around the same time is all I "need" for the basic route. Though I would also need something different for the northern route. And then the three different routes through Seattle and two east of Spokane (if that ever changed, which I think it did). I'm impressed that I've been able to figure out alignments based upon mileage and very dated descriptions of the Blue Books. Most of all, I'm just having fun. I'm not sure where/how I'd credit you as the only place I'll be posting this info is here (and I'll credit you here, of course). If I ever do anything more with it, which is amazingly doubtful, you'll definitely get the credit. If I ever wrote a book about it, I could probably just put your name and John's name on it and it wouldn't be too far from the truth. As for stuff with the National Parks Highway, I'm assuming most of what I'm finding with the YT would be applicable to the NPH. Speaking of, I noticed on one of your 1920's maps that the NPH went through Issaqua and probably up Rainier Road east of Seattle. That's what I've termed the "later more southerly" alignment of YT (post-1925). And of course, you're more than welcome to any info that I post and whatever info I find, I'll post here. I guess I'm of the "all information for everyone" school of thought. -Eric!

The term "yahoo" was from Gulliver's Travels. It was a race of "brutes." This was from the 1700's. It was probably just usurped and made into a cheer. "Jehu" went from the Bible to being used to mean any fast driver. This apparently happened in the 1600's. Sadly, there doesn't seem to be a connection. Most of our cheering words (hurrah, hooray, yay, etc) seem to come from the glorious "huzzah!" -Eric